What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

[ZFBoxcar]

Patton wanted to I heard. But nobody had the stomach for another war, and this one would be more destructive (to the West anyways). You make it sound like the West was the one with expansionist tendencies in Europe. That would be the USSR.

[Prosto ILya]

You make it sound like the West was the one with expansionist tendencies in Europe. That would be the USSR.

I make sound only that - both USSR and West have expansionist tendencies in Europe.

I understand that for West, USSR is an empire of Evil. For me and for great majority of Russian people–USSR is our ex-home.

[dalem]

Tendancies and prejudices be damned. The Red Air Force was incapable of stopping the Allied Air Forc, plain and simple. Once the skies are clear, advancing Soviet armies die.

-dale

[ZFBoxcar]

Prosto, the West did not control the actions of governments in Europe that were created after WWII. If we did, we would not have let France leave NATO Military Command, we would have curbed the welfare state and make them pump more into their militaries, and we have picked their governments rather then let them be elected. Can you, with a straight face, claim that the Soviet Union did not opress Eastern Europe? I know the USSR was your home, but it was not home to other Eastern Eiuropeans.

[Prosto ILya]

Tendancies and prejudices be damned. The Red Air Force was incapable of stopping the Allied Air Forc, plain and simple. Once the skies are clear, advancing Soviet armies die.

-dale

As you wish. Soviet armies die, Red Flag perished and grandpa Lenin masoulem turned in to McDonalds. Or pizzeria.
Still, pelmeni, much better.

Prosto, the West did not control the actions of governments in Europe that were created after WWII. If we did, we would not have let France leave NATO Military Command, we would have curbed the welfare state and make them pump more into their militaries, and we have picked their governments rather then let them be elected. Can you, with a straight face, claim that the Soviet Union did not opress Eastern Europe? I know the USSR was your home, but it was not home to other Eastern Eiuropeans.

Call me Ilya. Are you truly believe, that West did not control actions of European governments? Yes, France left Nato, but only because it was France. Special occasion- besides France always was and will be ally of the West. They left Nato – but not their allegiance.
You know, I can do a lot of things with a straight face. Great practice with a mirror, he-he. But to deny a proven fact… No, that just idiocy. Of Course USSR oppressed. Oppressed all countries under his wing. Russia – included. The funniest fact of all – people often forget that USSR were never leaded be Russian (that is not a racist crap – just a funny fact). As for me, I am glad that there is no more USSR. Besides, China is on the rise.

[ZFBoxcar]

Call me Ilya.

Allright.

Are you truly believe, that West did not control actions of European governments? Yes, France left Nato, but only because it was France. Special occasion- besides France always was and will be ally of the West. They left Nato – but not their allegiance.

It is provable that the United States and Britain did not control the governments of their allies. The ballots in all their elections were counted by their own people, their constitutions were written by their elected governments, and their decision to join NATO was voluntary, and as we see from France, reversible. While of course France would side with the rest of the West against the Soviet Union, this is because the rest of the West had no intention of opressing them. If the USSR had the ability to take France without engaging in MAD, they would do it.

Of Course USSR oppressed. Oppressed all countries under his wing. Russia – included. The funniest fact of all – people often forget that USSR were never leaded be Russian (that is not a racist crap – just a funny fact). As for me, I am glad that there is no more USSR. Besides, China is on the rise.

I know Stalin was not Russian, but other than him, which Soviet leaders were not Russians?

[Prosto ILya]

It is provable that the United States and Britain did not control the governments of their allies. The ballots in all their elections were counted by their own people, their constitutions were written by their elected governments, and their decision to join NATO was voluntary, and as we see from France, reversible.

Ballots! Or ballots are such an unpredictable thing. Take for example Iraq, Ukraine “democratic” elections and Yuchenko “victory”, or Chechnya elections.

If the USSR had the ability to take France without engaging in MAD, they would do it.

Nukes are guardians of peace. At least, for now.

I know Stalin was not Russian, but other than him, which Soviet leaders were not Russians?

Cruchev – Ukraine, Brezhnev – Ukraine, Gorbachew – Ukraine. Andropov and Chernenko were Russians but their “reign” was short.

[lwarmonger]

Cruchev – Ukraine, Brezhnev – Ukraine, Gorbachew – Ukraine. Andropov and Chernenko were Russians but their “reign” was short.

What of Lenin? Was he not Russian?

Also, if you think that the Russian airforce would defeat the American airforce, you are very wrong. If Russia and the United States fought, Russia was doomed. While I am not of the opinion that airpower (especially in WWII) is capable of winning a war against a powerful opponent on its own, it would have severely hampered the Soviet army's ability to take ground. That would have delayed the Soviet's long enough for America's vastly superior industrial base to come into play, and at that point the Soviet Union would have been finished. Remember, Russia had just had four years of total war on your own soil, whereas the United States was completely untouched. Russia also was reliant upon America for much of it's logistics (trucks were largely American), so once that support was cut off, Russia would have been in big trouble. Nuclear weapons wouldn't have been a huge edge (we didn't have that many), but they would have helped destroy the largest transportation hubs, thus further enhancing the supply difficulties of the Soviet Armies.

[ZFBoxcar]

Take for example Iraq

They haven't had presidential elections yet, only elections for the assembly to write their constitution. And it proves nothing so far since there has not yet been anything to prove one way or the other what the nature of their government will look like when complete

Ukraine “democratic” elections and Yuchenko “victory”

The first elections were the sham. Not the second ones.

Chechnya elections.

I plead ignorance on that one.

Nukes are guardians of peace. At least, for now.

Between Russia, China, the EU, and the US anyways. Who knows if it will work with North Korea and Iran?

[dalem]

As you wish. Soviet armies die, Red Flag perished and grandpa Lenin masoulem turned in to McDonalds. Or pizzeria.
Still, pelmeni, much better.

Nyet, nichevo. I didn't say that. I was clear that the "two weeks" thing is in reference to the Red Army continuing to attack West, i.e. a hypothetical Soviet aggressive move against Western Europe sometime in 1945. And the destruction of those hypothetical advances into Europe, which I believe would have proven true, say nothing about any Western Allies' ability or inability to move East.

All the armies were tired, East, West, and German. I don't see how either the Sovs or the Brits and Americans could have convinced their armies to fight against each other very successfully in 1945.

-dale

[stratadmir]

Though the ALlies may have a hard time fighting each other if they kept goin after, but that is something they may have to do. Also the countries that were under the USSR at the end also would have probably rose up in defiance. though they may not have a large army, they could probably perform guerilla raids and such. Plus the US navy was ar more superior to the USSR and the UK was more superior, therefore they could lanch assaults of carriers far enough inland to disrupt industry and supply lines.

[Prosto ILya]

What of Lenin? Was he not Russian?

He was. And his reign was also short.

If Russia and the United States fought, Russia was doomed. While I am not of the opinion that airpower (especially in WWII) is capable of winning a war against a powerful opponent on its own, it would have severely hampered the Soviet army's ability to take ground.

At the end of the War military experience of USSR armies were unmatched. The Europe will be cleansed in a matter of months. And do not forget about USSR armies in China, which defeat Quantone army. They were ready to march on.

Remember, Russia had just had four years of total war on your own soil, whereas the United States was completely untouched.

I remember. But rebuilding was incredibly fast. After 10 years we already put sputnik on orbit.

Russia also was reliant upon America for much of it's logistics (trucks were largely American) so once that support was cut off, Russia would have been in big trouble

Lend Liz? At the beginning of the war – yes. At the end – no. Many German trucks captured, besides mass creation of our own copies of American-German trucks.

And it proves nothing so far since there has not yet been anything to prove one way or the other what the nature of their government will look like when complete

In a country, tortured by war and terrorists hard to prove anything.

The first elections were the sham. Not the second ones.

And again – certain point of view. “Democratic” revolutions – amazing thing. At least, when West mass media shows it.

Between Russia, China, the EU, and the US anyways. Who knows if it will work with North Korea and Iran?

I guess, It will work quite fine. They do not have desire to smell nuclear winds in the morning. They have children. They have plans for the future.

Also the countries that were under the USSR at the end also would have probably rose up in defiance.

Which country, for example?
Poland? Latvia? They have nether guts, neither power to do such an act.

they could probably perform guerilla raids and such.

USSR army of that days has great experience in this matter. Fighting with West Ukraine Bendera’s scum, fighting back Latvia fascist, so called Lesnie Bratya (Forest Brothers).

Plus the US navy was ar more superior to the USSR and the UK was more superior

According to whom? At the end of war USSR has more than enough submarines with war trained crews.

[stratadmir]

How do you know that these ppl would not have the power to even rise up. the polocks did during WWII.

[Prosto ILya]

How do you know that these ppl would not have the power to even rise up. the polocks did during WWII.

There were a few trully heroic Jews arising in Nazis’s occupied Poland. There were a few attempts to riot among Poland population. And they all were crushed by Nazi.

[dalem]

There were a few trully heroic Jews arising in Nazis’s occupied Poland. There were a few attempts to riot among Poland population. And they all were crushed by Nazi.

Umm, the Poles weren't just crushed by the Nazis. Your vaunted USSR abandoned the Warsaw uprising to the Nazis, then moved in and killed the leftovers themselves.

-dale