Greatest warrior of all time?

[lemontree]

tsering,
That is Capt. Vijayant Thapar VrC, last letter to his parents and not Capt Vikram Batra PVC. My coursemate Maj. P "Archie" Acharya MVC, was killed in that battle before Capt. Thapar made his sacrifice. Both were from 2 Rajputana Rifles.
Archie's first child was born 3 months after he died. Archie never saw his baby, but left a legacy to be proud of.
As quoted by me earlier:-

Modern warfare has so many true warriors that mentioning all is difficult.

[Jonathan Locke]

I agree wtih you on that quote

[TexasOutlaw]

Lemme throw my 2cents in on this one...

My first choice was Audie Murphy...
but my second choice would be Col. Hal Moore..for obvious reasons

I'd also throw in the 2 snipers who were killed in Mogadishu defending the Black Hawk and it's 2 remaining crew members.


Ironically enough..from what I have been told...Audie Murphy was killed in a plane crash in Southeastern Oklahoma. He was surveying his newly purchased land, and making plans for the acreage to be turned into a game preserve. Even more strange is that part of the land that I grew up on was purchased by him.

[Jonathan Locke]

. Even more strange is that part of the land that I grew up on was purchased by him.

cool

[Ziska]

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded"

:)

I'd like to nominate Ziska, Lt. Jacka VC, and Simpson (& his donkey) for these awards.

[The Chap]

Miyamoto Musashi

Esoteric good call! Iya'asu as well?

[The Chap]

Nelson
Vlad Dracul
Saladin
Paddy Maine
Hannibal
Gurderian
and I must have missed Alexander amidst the greek issue.
Benedict Arnold was rather good too ...

[Guest]

Ben Salomon

The fighting was fierce throughout 7 July 1944 on the northern end of the island of Saipan. Desperate, cornered Japanese soldiers hurled themselves at American positions. On the hills overlooking the coastal plain and the village of Tanapag, soldiers of the 27th Infantry Division repelled several banzai attacks. Their position was strong, and gradually as the day wore on the Japanese assaults weakened. The story was different on the beach below. Occasionally looking down, they saw that their fellow soldiers in the 1st and 2d Battalions of the 105th Infantry Regiment were in a much more precarious position. The initial enemy attacks coming out of the night had struck full force at the battalions' initial positions next to the ocean. Despite furious resistance, the survivors were eventually pushed back to the village of Tanapag where they continued to fight. The soldiers on the hills above readily recognized the bravery of their comrades below, but they could not foresee that out of this action would come a Distinguished Unit Citation, two Medals of Honor, and a fifty-seven year struggle for another Medal of Honor for an Army dentist. In combat, the courage and fearlessness shown by some soldiers is frequently astounding and inexplicable. Such a fighter was Captain Ben Salomon, the Army dentist killed in battle defending his aid station on 7 July 1944. Almost as amazing as Ben Salomon's exploits is the story of how his heroism was finally recognized by the award of the nation's highest medal for valor.

Born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on 1 September 1914, Ben Salomon grew up in the city, graduated from Shorewood High School, and attended Marquette University before moving to Los Angeles, California, to finish his undergraduate education at the University of Southern California. He then went on to graduate from the University of Southern California Dental College in 1937, and began practicing dentistry. As with most young men in the United States on the eve of World War II, Ben's civilian plans quickly took second place to the military needs of the country. He was smart, good-looking, and popular, with a bright future in front of him. Soon after the National Selective Service Act became effective in the fall of 1940, Ben's draft board ordered him to report for induction into the Army. Dr. Ben Salomon became an infantry private.

After basic training Ben joined the 102d Infantry Regiment and quickly proved to be a natural soldier and leader. He won awards as an expert rifle and pistol marksman, and his commanding officer stated that he was "the best all-around soldier" in the regiment. Within a year he had risen to the rank of sergeant and was in charge of a machine gun section. In 1942 Salomon received notification that he was to become an officer in the Dental Corps. At first Ben attempted to remain in the infantry, and his commanding officer requested that he be commissioned a second lieutenant of infantry. The request was denied, and Salomon reported to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, where he was commissioned a first lieutenant on 14 August 1942. After several months of work in a hospital, Lieutenant Salomon was assigned in May 1943 as the regimental dental officer of the 105th Infantry Regiment, part of the 27th Infantry Division.

Characteristically, Ben jumped into his new duties with enthusiasm and skill. Despite not having practiced dentistry for two years, Lieutenant Salomon was quickly recognized as an excellent dentist by his patients and his fellow dentists. He developed a routine of handling dental appointments in the morning and joining his regiment in the field for training in the afternoon. Ben was not just a staff observer, but also an active participant in all activities from hot, dusty hikes and range firing to crawling through the mud of the obstacle courses. He won all of the regimental competitions. Later, his regimental commander described the uniqueness of his dental officer:

Ben Salomon was the best instructor in infantry tactics we ever had. He gave everybody who ever met him a real lift. He had a way of inspiring people to do things that they might not have done otherwise. I think it was because he himself was the most vital man most of us ever met.

In June 1944, newly promoted Captain Salomon went ashore on Saipan with the 105th Infantry Regiment for his first taste of battle. In active combat operations there was little work for the regimental dentist, so Ben immediately volunteered to replace the 2nd Battalion's surgeon who had been wounded in a mortar attack on 22 June. The day before, the unbloodied 2d Battalion had been thrown into a fight to clear the Nafutan peninsula in the southeast corner of the island while the remainder of the 27th Division and the 4th Marine Division pushed north. The 2d Battalion struggled and eventually at great expense, through trial and error, began to learn the techniques of properly executed combined arms attacks. There was plenty of work to keep acting surgeon Salomon busy as the effective strength of his battalion dropped to about fifty percent of its authorized strength. On 27 June the 2d Battalion finally secured the Nafutan peninsula, but the cost had been high, not only in personnel losses, but also in its reputation. The Marine commander on Saipan, Lt. Gen. Holland Smith, complained about the poorly performing unit, which he claimed had been stopped by a handful of disorganized enemy soldiers. General Smith's doubts about the leadership of the 2d Battalion, and indeed of most Army units on Saipan, contributed to his relief of Army Maj. Gen. Ralph Smith, commander of the 27th Infantry Division. As the 2d Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment moved north to rejoin the rest of the 27th Division, there might have been a cloud over its head in the eyes of the Marines, but the battalion itself was a much wiser and combat hardened unit.

The final drive to the north to clear the remainder of Saipan moved forward rapidly with the 27th Infantry Division on the left and the 4th Marine Division on the right. On 4 July the 2d Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment was inserted into the far left of the line on the coastal plain next to the ocean near the village of Tanapag. Although the 2nd Battalion advanced almost 800 yards on the 5th, it bogged down the next day against increasingly desperate Japanese resistance. Late on 6 July the regimental reserve, the 1st Battalion, 105th Infantry, was committed on the right of the 2d Battalion thus allowing the two battalions to drive forward 600 yards along the coast before dark. With reports of a planned Japanese night counterattack circulating, the 1st and 2d Battalions established a tight perimeter defense of foxholes well supported by infantry heavy weapons and artillery.

The reports were correct. Of the original thirty thousand Japanese soldiers, only a few thousand remained, and those were disorganized and short of food and weapons. General Saito, the Japanese army commander, ordered all remaining Japanese soldiers, sailors, and civilians, possibly as many as five or six thousand men, to gather about a mile in front of the 1st and 2nd Battalion positions the evening of 6 July. Saito addressed his men and issued the following order: "We will advance to attack the American forces and will all die an honorable death. Each man will kill ten Americans." Then Saito committed suicide along with the naval commander on Saipan, Admiral Chichi Nagumi. Saito's men followed his orders and moved resolutely forward against the 1st and 2d Battalions despite heavy American artillery fire.

The Americans were vigilant and quickly detected the Japanese advance. Flares added to the natural illumination of a bright moon, but the Japanese approach was somewhat concealed by heavy brush which began about 400 yards from the American position. About 0500 hours the tidal wave of the Japanese banzai attack burst out of the brush and rolled forward in waves. The Americans opened fire inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy, but still the Japanese advanced and soon were inside the foxhole perimeter.

Ben Salomon had set up his aid station in a small tent about fifty yards behind the forward foxholes and thirty yards from the shoreline. Within ten minutes of the beginning of the attack, his aid station was overwhelmed with over thirty wounded. Salomon was working steadily on the most serious cases inside the tent when Japanese soldiers began to enter. Ben shot the first one who had bayoneted a wounded American lying on a stretcher. Two more charged through the tent entrance. Ben clubbed them both with a rifle, then shot one and bayoneted the other. Four more began to crawl under the sides of the tent. He shot one, bayoneted one, stabbed another with a knife, and head butted the fourth. Ben ran out of the tent to get help to defend the aid station. He quickly saw that the situation was hopeless. The Japanese suicide masses had overwhelmed the two under strength American battalions. Pockets of resistance fought on inside the perimeter, but the bulk of the survivors were being pushed back toward Tanapag village. Salomon returned to the tent and ordered his aid men to evacuate the wounded while he stayed behind to hold off the enemy and cover their withdrawal. Salomon then grabbed a rifle and fought on with the few Americans still resisting inside the perimeter. Eventually he manned a machine gun after its gunner was killed. That was the last time anyone saw Ben Salomon alive.

The fighting continued throughout 7 July as the Japanese attacked other American units. As the day wore on, it was obvious that the assaulting force had spent itself. Late on the 7th, the Americans counterattacked, and on 9 July the island was secured as most of the remaining Japanese committed suicide. Early on 8 July the positions of the 1st and 2d Battalions, 105th Infantry Regiment had been regained. These units had withstood the worst of the assault. At the beginning of the banzai attack, the two battalions had 1,108 men present for duty; at the end 919 were either dead or seriously wounded, an 83 percent casualty rate.

The 27th Division historian, Capt. Edmund G. Love, accompanied the team that went back to the overrun battalions' position. Love later described what they found:

We had been walking through piles of dead men when the general gave a sudden start, and then stepped over to the figure of a man who was bent over the barrel of a heavy machine gun. Very quickly, almost before I saw what he was doing, the general took out a knife and cut the Red Cross brassard from Ben Salomon's arm. Then he straightened up and looked around. There were ninety-eight Japanese bodies piled up in front of that gun position. Salomon had killed so many men that he had been forced to move the gun four different times in order to get a clear field of fire. There was something else that we noted, too. There were seventy-six bullet holes in Salomon's body. When we called a doctor over to examine him, we were told that twenty-four of the wounds had been suffered before Salomon died. There were no witnesses, but it wasn't hard to put the story together. One could easily visualize Ben Salomon, wounded and bleeding, trying to drag that gun a few more feet so that he would have a new field of fire. The blood was on the ground, and the marks plainly indicated how hard it must have been for him, especially in that last move.

[Bill]

"Horatius is reported by numerous reliable historians. Achilles is mentioned an epic poem intended as a myth.

That is the difference."

The Invasion of Troy was thought to be a myth for centuries, but Archeologists found the actual cite of the city, and it had been destroyed right at the time that Illiad had supposedly occured.

Now most historians believe that the Illiad was based on real events. Certainly Homer never indicates in the work that it is one of fiction. Indeed he describes it as if it was a historical occurence.

[Praxus]

"Horatius is reported by numerous reliable historians. Achilles is mentioned an epic poem intended as a myth.

That is the difference."

The Invasion of Troy was thought to be a myth for centuries, but Archeologists found the actual cite of the city, and it had been destroyed right at the time that Illiad had supposedly occured.

Now most historians believe that the Illiad was based on real events. Certainly Homer never indicates in the work that it is one of fiction. Indeed he describes it as if it was a historical occurence.

I agree, Im talking about Achilles though, not the Invasion of Troy as such.

[Bill]

There is no archaeological record of his existance, i'll grant you that much.

[hammer]

how about Vikram batra of tiger hill.he knew he was gonna get killed yet he did what he had to do.a true hero.
below is his last letter to home....

Vikram Batra is still a hero to me. I agree , a lot of heroes died for this country in kargil .But for me Vikram Batra is special , coz i saw him on NDTV explaining how they captured the Pak anti-aircraft gun so enthusiastically. and for some reason i remembered his face and his name . within a week or so i was shocked to hear the news that he was killed defending a peak.and his famous quote "Yeh Dil mange more"(roughly it translates 'gimme more') is very popular .It took me sometime to understand the realities of war.

He is in the extreme left in the last pic posing behind the captured anti-aircraft gun.

[The Chap]

"Horatius is reported by numerous reliable historians. Achilles is mentioned an epic poem intended as a myth.

That is the difference."

The Invasion of Troy was thought to be a myth for centuries, but Archeologists found the actual cite of the city, and it had been destroyed right at the time that Illiad had supposedly occured.

Now most historians believe that the Illiad was based on real events. Certainly Homer never indicates in the work that it is one of fiction. Indeed he describes it as if it was a historical occurence.

I'm with Sniper. I've been to the kraut excavation. It is indeed much as described.

Still, it is all speculative when the question of pseudo-historical heroness comes into play. :)

[Bill]

"Still, it is all speculative when the question of pseudo-historical heroness comes into play."

Since the Greeks burnt their warriors, barring the discovery of new ancient texts, it is likely that definitive proof will never be found.

However, one does not normally attempt to portray a real battle and then just make up the names of warriors who fought it.

Therefore, i believe there is a good chance that Achilles, son of Pelius, and Homer, tamer of horses actually lived. Agamemnon certainly did.

[The Chap]

Again, on y'side. The only caveat is that in documented Greek lit. tradition there is a tendancy to confabulate. The Fagles translations are the best for academe. :)
Once, back at university, there was a converstsionie (big bloody groop chat ;) )
in which I asked a visiting scholar from Oxford whether he enjoyed the Illiad or the Oddessey more?

Needless to say, enjoying them had never occured to him. Fluent in ancient Greek
and simultaneously ignorant of it. ****.

He (Acch) was real. And the others. Oral history. That (Troy) is not a fiction. Nor - although embellished - the others Fagels bothered to translate. :)