Pakistani Genocide

[Jay]

Take it up with defencetalk.com They quoted it. I am sure you can show them the light

But you are the snort who quuoted it not me. There is a website that says you are a friggin fool, would you gladly you accept it?? Not to mention that pretty good avionics list you posted. you are hilarious

You're a funny guy, so stupid, but funny.

Yep, just trying to be like you.

It goes in one ear and out the other. Talk about short memory span.

Seems you have a longer memory span, gets in to your ears and out from your a$$, like the crap you spewed all over the thread.

Bose is West Bengali, that makes her Indian. India fought against West Pakistan. She researched the war, presented her findings to a select committee of historians, even Bangladeshi historians that agreed their figure of 3 million was ridiculous (conveniently blaming it on a mistranslation of texts), and showed by a systematic analysis of case studies that there was no evidence of rapes committed by West Pakistani forces.

So that the criteria that makes you endorse Bose's arguement. She was an Indian, India fought Pakistan and She researched and presented her findings, so that makes it authentic. even if a Bangali research and present his/her findings will not make it authentic. Bwahaaha!!

i'm not sure what's not getting through your skull here. Bose's survey was conducted in the last few years. They're based on interviews, visiting the sites, gathering data and then analyzing them. She has no reason whatsoever to favour the West Pakistani forces. She just found too many contradictions in the stories of people bent on trying to make a name for themselves, money, or tarnish images of others.

The reports fromt he doctors who went there to help Bangladeshis to cope with rapes and abortions are lying then?? Bose conducted her reviews just a few years back, but most of the sources which has pictures, eye witness records are a lie, coz they are from Bangalis. Thats the dumbest arguement you have. It happened in Bangladesh, who better than Bangalis can research and document it??

Difference is Amnesty is a reputed organization that will check the reports being made for factual incosistencies - it's their name at stake after all and that's why they're such a powerful organization. Usually they'll work in teams so there's not going to be much chance of them getting away with making things up unlike the lone riders from Bangladesh.

Yeah right, most of the reports were submitted to US Congress. And Congressmen are a bumch of fools to accept them, while amnesty is a reputed orgn with reputed scholars. What a twisted logic you have.

Look at it like this. Let's say (God forbid) that your friend doesnt like someone. He invents a story about them, and portrays it as true to get back at them. Are you supposed to believe him.

Lets say this, your friend doesnt like some body, he kills him and the only evidence is that somebody's sister. Since ther's no "neutral" evidence as you call them, does that make your friend innocent?? Or if that sister files a complaint to police, will they reject it coz she's the dead one's sister and she gotta motive??

I can see I'm wasting my time here

Its the other way, you are wasting our collective time here, not to menion the bandwidth.

I havent checked those two out, and I dont intend to waste more time doing it right now. But BrownMiller quotes Aubrey Menon, as do

Yeah, please dont, be like a broken record harping the same. Brownmiller was in Bangladesh right after the genocide.

I wouldnt say an Indian author's writings on the War were impartial. Another thing that has to be remembered is that the Pakistan Army had banned all reporters from Bangladesh during 1971 when this was occurring so Robert Payne et al had to have been working with the Mukti Bahini guerillas who no doubt would be more than willing to show them dead bodies even if they were Biharis. There is nothing solid in any of the things you quote in my opinion. Perhaps, Robert Payne. I'll see if i can find something about him later.

Yeah, werent you the one who was asking for neutral observers for the carnage?? Regardless of what evr you show about Robert Payne doesnt change the fact that Pakistni army looted, raped, killed, conducted a mass genocide in Bangladesh.

So how did Robert Payne hear Yahya say this?

May be Yahaya called him to say it. do you have anything otherwise to prove him wrong??

Was Yahya in the habit of wanting to look evil in front of journalists. It just so happens that this figure of 3 million dead in this war is quoted by the Bengalis, and Indians in their medias as though it's Gospel. Coincidence or............????????? He's just trying to sell his book, and make it as
sensationlist as possible is my guess.

Yeah, sensationalist. Pakistan Army created a new sensation by conducting a genocide and thats the truth.

[Hongkongfuey]

Bose is West Bengali, that makes her Indian. India fought against West Pakistan. She researched the war, presented her findings to a select committee of historians, even Bangladeshi historians that agreed their figure of 3 million was ridiculous (conveniently blaming it on a mistranslation of texts), and showed by a systematic analysis of case studies that there was no evidence of rapes committed by West Pakistani forces.

So that the criteria that makes you endorse Bose's arguement. She was an Indian, India fought Pakistan and She researched and presented her findings, so that makes it authentic. even if a Bangali research and present his/her findings will not make it authentic. Bwahaaha!!

Nope, I dont know anything is authentic for sure. But i know Bose's report has a much more solid foundation than the like of your reports by Rounaq Jahan, and the ever changing his mind Archie Blood.

i'm not sure what's not getting through your skull here. Bose's survey was conducted in the last few years. They're based on interviews, visiting the sites, gathering data and then analyzing them. She has no reason whatsoever to favour the West Pakistani forces. She just found too many contradictions in the stories of people bent on trying to make a name for themselves, money, or tarnish images of others.

The reports fromt he doctors who went there to help Bangladeshis to cope with rapes and abortions are lying then?? Bose conducted her reviews just a few years back, but most of the sources which has pictures, eye witness records are a lie, coz they are from Bangalis. Thats the dumbest arguement you have. It happened in Bangladesh, who better than Bangalis can research and document it??

There werent any doctors' reports from Bangladesh when the war was going on. The doctor's report you quoted was after the war, and he said that there were a lot of unwanted pregnancies at this time.

Your quote
Dr. Geoffrey Davis of the London-based International
Abortion Research and Training Centre who worked for months in the
remote countryside of Bangladesh reported that he had heard of
"countless" incidents of suicide and infanticide during his
travels. Rat poison and drowning were the available means. Davis
also estimated that five thousand women had managed to abort themselves by various indigenous methods, with attendant medical complications.

Alright, I found an article on Dr Geoffrey Davis even!!

Newspaper reports of the time, which included interviews of Justice K. M. Sobhan, Chairperson, BWRP, Sister Margaret Mary, Superior, Missionaries of Charity, Dr. Geoffrey Davis, the IPPF personnel such as Odert von Shoultz, reveal that 2,3000 abortions were performed at various Dhaka clinics by a team of British, American and Australian doctors, with assistance from some Bengali counterparts. In a sense, it makes the most comprehensive information on abortion in early 1972
http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/W_0021.htm

So I take it the figure is 23,000 abortions were performed in 1972 (all the first 9 months. That could be a lot, but for one fact ; the background abortion rate.

About 400,000 abortions are estimated to occur each year in the Philippines, while the number in Bangladesh is calculated to be about 730,000
http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC4442.htm

When you have 730,000 abortions occuring annually in peace time, do you think that 23,000 abortions in one year following the war is suggestive of mass rapings by West Pakistani soldiers?

Difference is Amnesty is a reputed organization that will check the reports being made for factual incosistencies - it's their name at stake after all and that's why they're such a powerful organization. Usually they'll work in teams so there's not going to be much chance of them getting away with making things up unlike the lone riders from Bangladesh.

Yeah right, most of the reports were submitted to US Congress. And Congressmen are a bumch of fools to accept them, while amnesty is a reputed orgn with reputed scholars. What a twisted logic you have.

Nope, again, most reports were not submitted to US congress. You had one or two perhaps, namely the Archie Blood letter, and he's taken back what he's said. Most of the discussions in the US Senate by US politicians centred around the notorious "Blood letters" which obviously werent quite true as Archie Blood himself admitted much later.

Look at it like this. Let's say (God forbid) that your friend doesnt like someone. He invents a story about them, and portrays it as true to get back at them. Are you supposed to believe him.

Lets say this, your friend doesnt like some body, he kills him and the only evidence is that somebody's sister. Since ther's no "neutral" evidence as you call them, does that make your friend innocent?? Or if that sister files a complaint to police, will they reject it coz she's the dead one's sister and she gotta motive??

Innocent until proven guilty. It's not a difficult concept.

I havent checked those two out, and I dont intend to waste more time doing it right now. But BrownMiller quotes Aubrey Menon, as do

Yeah, please dont, be like a broken record harping the same. Brownmiller was in Bangladesh right after the genocide.

Oh, so now she wasnt even in Bangladesh during the war?!?! And yet she comes to stunning and surprisingly accurate conclusions that Bengali women were raped as much as 80 (!) times per night!!

Rape in Bangladesh had hardly been restricted to beauty," Brownmiller writes. "Girls of eight and grandmothers of seventy-five had been sexually assaulted ... Pakistani soldiers had not only violated Bengali women on the spot; they abducted tens of hundreds and held them by force in their military barracks for nightly use." Some women may have been raped as many as eighty times in a night (Brownmiller, p. 83).

I guess it's one of those things you know. Women's intuition. Not being in Bangladesh during the War, but then going there after and feeling the pain of women being raped 80 times in the night. Sounds highly likely.

So how did Robert Payne hear Yahya say this?

May be Yahaya called him to say it. do you have anything otherwise to prove him wrong??

Good reply. As usual you make as much sense as a lobotomized monkey on crack.

3 million said by Yahya, and 3 million is what the Bengali and Indian media quoted. Spot on Yahya was. I bet he was ticking off the 35,000 Bengalis his troops would need to have killed in order to achieve this tally before he had his midnight cup of cocoa.

Yeah, sensationalist. Pakistan Army created a new sensation by conducting a genocide and thats the truth.

If you say so

[Ray]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay

Quote:
I havent checked those two out, and I dont intend to waste more time doing it right now. But BrownMiller quotes Aubrey Menon, as do

Yeah, please dont, be like a broken record harping the same. Brownmiller was in Bangladesh right after the genocide.

Honglong:

Oh, so now she wasnt even in Bangladesh during the war?!?! And yet she comes to stunning and surprisingly accurate conclusions that Bengali women were raped as much as 80 (!) times per night!!

and Sharmila Bose was there in Bangladesh during the War?

How you conveniently contradict yourself!

It is just that Bose is music to your ears! ;)

[Ray]

She is Bengali Ray - The Bengalis were the enemy of the West Pakistanis, your memory seems a little hazy to say the least!!

I am a Bengali, old boy.

I am no enemy of West Pakistanis. In fact, no Indian Bengali is. West Paksitan is not even worthy of a Bengali drawing room conversation since there is nothing in common to talk about.

On the one hand you call Sharmila Bose an Indian who is pro Pak and then on the other hand, you say Bengalis are against WPs!!

Collect your thoughts.

It is reallly not difficult to be a Professor in a reputed US Univ. The standard of Indian education is indeed high.

My relatives are or have been Professors of reputed Univs including in the US and the UK. But that doesn't make them cats whiskers!

[Ray]

There werent any doctors' reports from Bangladesh when the war was going on. The doctor's report you quoted was after the war, and he said that there were a lot of unwanted pregnancies at this time.

and how did that come about?

East Pakistanis suddenly getting their libido back because of the lunar cycle?

And God had this freak lunar cycle giving an extra libido just before the Bangaldesh Liberation?

I always wondered why does the eye see a thing more clearly in dreams than the imagination when awake?

So please try dreaming for a change.

[Hongkongfuey]

and Sharmila Bose was there in Bangladesh during the War?

How you conveniently contradict yourself!

There's no contradiction in there, but the one you wish to see. The bits quoted from Brownmiller are of direct descriptions of individual events, as if she was there. For example she says that women were raped as much as 80 times in one night, but gives no evidence to back this astonishing fact up. Sarmila Bose's report is not presented like that. It has the form of a survey. She takes a group of unconnected people and surveys them and then draws her conclusions based on individual samples. It's like her findings on rape shown in the quote. She does not rely on one or two cases, but samples a group of people with a certain question. Compare this with Brownmiller's research which seems like1) stick microphone in front of woman 2) tell me your story and then she goes and types it into her book.

8.. No rape of women by Pakistan army found in any of the cases of
conflict

In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan army in the
case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While
this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study,
it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along
with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases
even in written form in the Bengali literature. However, when Bengali
eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were
interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also
testified that no rape had taken place.
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

The recent Iraq survey done by the Lancet was done using a similar method of extrapolation described above. This survey was criticized from some quarters for using this extrapolation procedure, and you can see Bose has erred on the side of caution by saying that she wont extrapolate her data, but that the data was significantly different to what was alleged previously. This is known as a systematic analysis, NOT the half baked kook stories from one individual claiming rape for which there is no reference.

[Hongkongfuey]

Immediately following the war, there was a demand for recrimination, passions were aroused by Sheikh Mujabir Rahman trumpeting the figure of 3 million in all his speeches (see link)

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman has used the number THREE MILLION on occasions in the first month of his victorious arrival from Pakistan In total, from 1972 to 1975 he used this controversial number on a dozen occasion. The THREE MILLION is mentioned in some patriotic songs and poems
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~faisal/Genocide.html

The years 1972-1975 therefore were years when the hatred in the hearts of East Bengalis was fuelled by Shaikh Rahman right until is own party decided to kill him and all his family. This was also when Brownmiller wrote her book.

Professor Bose conducted her report much more professionally (there's no record of wild figures like 80 rapes in a night or 400,000 rapes by 40-70,000 soldiers (that's nearly 6-10 rapes per soldier!!), and also at a time when the figure of 3 million wasnt being banded about so much by the Bengali leaders.

Alright Susab BrownMiller has a good website, i recommend you all should visit. She sounds just hung up on her own "femininity"

http://www.susanbrownmiller.com/

Brownmiller went on to co-ordinate a sit-in against Ladies' Home Journal (http://www.randomhouse.com/boldtype/...r/excerpt.html) in 1970, began work on Against Our Will after a New York Radical Feminists speak-out on rape in 1971, and co-founded Women Against Pornography in 1979. She continues to write and speak on feminist issues, including a recent memoir and history of Second Wave radical feminism, In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution http://www.answers.com/topic/susan-brownmiller

Sounds like she'd already made her mind up in 1971 that the book she was going to right over the next 4 years would be on rape stories from Bangladesh. How non prejudging can one be?

Here's a quote from her too

We are unalterably opposed to the presentation of the female body being stripped, bound, raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered in the name of commercial entertainment and free speech.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ownmiller.html

[Ray]

This is known as a systematic analysis, NOT the half baked kook stories from one individual claiming rape for which there is no reference.

You are right a fully baked one with the "correct" receipe tastes better! ;)

Please spare us from your homilies!

I am still waiting for the "full strength" appreciation of the situation as they say in the Army of what was required for the defence of Pakistan!

Let's forget for a moment the strength that should have been there to defend East Pakistan jsut to give you the breather to google up.

If logistics were a problem and it required to come from West Pakistan, don't you think that there should have been the infrastructure to support any war with India in East Pakistan for the appreciated time that a war would have to be fought? There is a thing called the War Wastage Reserve!

Surely, India would not vanish as a country between the two parts of Pakistan to ease Pakistan in her logistics, nor would the Arabian Ocean and the Bay of Bengal similarly vanish!

These goegraphical and political entity were there to stay.

It again show how little Pakistan cared about East Pakistan!

East Pakistan was always in every war left to the mercies of the Indians.

So, why should they have faith in such selfish people as those in West Pakistan?

[Hongkongfuey]

I am a Bengali, old boy.

I am no enemy of West Pakistanis. In fact, no Indian Bengali is. West Paksitan is not even worthy of a Bengali drawing room conversation since there is nothing in common to talk about.

On the one hand you call Sharmila Bose an Indian who is pro Pak and then on the other hand, you say Bengalis are against WPs!!

Collect your thoughts.

It is reallly not difficult to be a Professor in a reputed US Univ. The standard of Indian education is indeed high.

My relatives are or have been Professors of reputed Univs including in the US and the UK. But that doesn't make them cats whiskers!

Ray, get this through your skull mate. SAMILA BOSE (no H after the S) is a West Bengali Indian Hindu who is not pro Pak. She's just neutral when it comes to this research. That is what I am saying. SHE IS NEUTRAL IS WHAT I'M SAYING RAY.

I do not know whether West Bengalis are generally against Pakistan, and frankly i dont really care.

We've been through the professor thing a while back, Ray. Look through the prvious posts, it's mentioned there somewhere, I'm not going to re-type it.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the standard of education is higher in Indian universities than the US, but if you are, you're sorely mistaken. They have neither the funds not the facilities to carry out comparable research and teaching in India.

[Hongkongfuey]

and how did that come about?

East Pakistanis suddenly getting their libido back because of the lunar cycle?

And God had this freak lunar cycle giving an extra libido just before the Bangaldesh Liberation?

I always wondered why does the eye see a thing more clearly in dreams than the imagination when awake?

So please try dreaming for a change.

Explained before, Ray.

750,000 abortions or unwanted pregancies a year in Bangladesh. Even if this represents double the population in 1971, you've still got 375,000 unwanted pregnancies during peacetime. 23,000 unwated pregnancies by the American etc. doctors in Bangladesh during 1972 is quite frankly hardly any compared to a figure of 375,000, so concluding something as ludicrous as some people from this is in itself ludicrous.

[Hongkongfuey]

You are right a fully baked one with the "correct" receipe tastes better! ;)

Please spare us from your homilies!

I am still waiting for the "full strength" appreciation of the situation as they say in the Army of what was required for the defence of Pakistan!

Let's forget for a moment the strength that should have been there to defend East Pakistan jsut to give you the breather to google up.

If logistics were a problem and it required to come from West Pakistan, don't you think that there should have been the infrastructure to support any war with India in East Pakistan for the appreciated time that a war would have to be fought? There is a thing called the War Wastage Reserve!

Surely, India would not vanish as a country between the two parts of Pakistan to ease Pakistan in her logistics, nor would the Arabian Ocean and the Bay of Bengal similarly vanish!

These goegraphical and political entity were there to stay.

It again show how little Pakistan cared about East Pakistan!

East Pakistan was always in every war left to the mercies of the Indians.

So, why should they have faith in such selfish people as those in West Pakistan?

Ray, just read this. Even you can understand it if you concentrate hard enough

Since East and West Pakistan were two separate geographical entities more than 1,600 miles apart, the only way Pakistani forces in East Pakistan could be sustained was through the sea. The Indian Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, decided that the Navy would be given the strategic task of denying both East and West Pakistan access to war supplies. The aim in short was a complete naval blockade of both parts of Pakistan. The bigger aim was of course to ensure that the conflict was not perpetuated beyond the time required to capture a chunk of East Pakistani territory.

....It was decided that the Vikrant would be used to blockade the ports in East Pakistan, and destroy the riverine craft used by the Pakistanis there.
http://www.freeindia.org/1971war/seawar.html

This all occurred in December, 1971. It was a simple tactic, but an obvious one to use. Two seperate geographical regions are a logistical nightmare. Bangladesh should have been given to the Bengalis from the moment of Partition in my opinion.

[Ray]

Ray, get this through your skull mate. SAMILA BOSE (no H after the S) is a West Bengali Indian Hindu who is not pro Pak. She's just neutral when it comes to this research. That is what I am saying. SHE IS NEUTRAL IS WHAT I'M SAYING RAY.

When one has nothing worthwhile to proffer, then such stuff as spellings come into play.

Her name is immaterial to me. It maybe that of God to you!

Does being a Hindu any indication that she cannot be pro Pakistan? Kuldip Nayyar is also a Hindu who is pro Pakistan. Lights candles at Wagah at the drop of a hat. Gets the media coverage!

BTW are you sure that she is a Hindu; not that it matters. Subash Bose is believed to have married an Austrian Catholic and Catholics bring up their children so. And it follows.

But then I never knew religion has something to do with liking a country or not!!

Why do you assume that being a Hindu/ Catholic is the basic index for hating or liking Pakistan! There are some Hindus in Pakistan. Do they hate Pakistan? Kuldip Nayyar loves Pakistan. Nothing wrong in that actually.

A very odd line of justification.

I do not know whether West Bengalis are generally against Pakistan, and frankly i dont really care.

Actually I care less, but then it was in response to your:

Quote:
She is Bengali Ray - The Bengalis were the enemy of the West Pakistanis, your memory seems a little hazy to say the least!!

You must sharpen your wits and keep it about you.

Amnesia should not hit you so early in life.

We've been through the professor thing a while back, Ray. Look through the prvious posts, it's mentioned there somewhere, I'm not going to re-type it.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the standard of education is higher in Indian universities than the US, but if you are, you're sorely mistaken. They have neither the funds not the facilities to carry out comparable research and teaching in India.

Not really.

The number of graduates is the issue. Also, Indian and Orientals take their studies very seriously as per the US report and so the number of professors would not be surprising.

The Americans are people who don't waste time on pursuing educational highs. They want to get down to the business of earning as fast as possible. Orientals do not have their derring do and hence compensate with safer paths like being a professer. Hence, professors of acutal and "sponsored' repute amongst the Orientals are a dime to a dozen! The Orientals love to exhibit their educational prowess at the cost of even an empty stomach. Have you not seen those visiting cards which carry a long list of degrees that they have acquired and which are no use to man or beast except to impress?

Further, you wrote this:

On the other hand, the Bose report i quoted, is from a BENGALI as well, but she cannot be accused of bias because she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

Christ, since when have East Pakistanis become own people to West Bengalis? The guys who have taken our hearth and home are our own people?

Good logic.

Why must you crank in issues without thought just to prove a point!!!

It is like saying a Mohajir is in love with the UP Hindus for chucking him out of his home!!!

Tell a Mhoajir that and he will see that you are six feet underground!

It is like saying Dracula can't see his reflection in a mirror, but his hair is always so neatly combed!

[Ray]

Explained before, Ray.

750,000 abortions or unwanted pregancies a year in Bangladesh. Even if this represents double the population in 1971, you've still got 375,000 unwanted pregnancies during peacetime. 23,000 unwated pregnancies by the American etc. doctors in Bangladesh during 1972 is quite frankly hardly any compared to a figure of 375,000, so concluding something as ludicrous as some people from this is in itself ludicrous.

True.

Rape is ludicrous!

But then you are right, everyone is wrong.

[Ray]

Ray, just read this. Even you can understand it if you concentrate hard enough

Quote:

Since East and West Pakistan were two separate geographical entities more than 1,600 miles apart, the only way Pakistani forces in East Pakistan could be sustained was through the sea. The Indian Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, decided that the Navy would be given the strategic task of denying both East and West Pakistan access to war supplies. The aim in short was a complete naval blockade of both parts of Pakistan. The bigger aim was of course to ensure that the conflict was not perpetuated beyond the time required to capture a chunk of East Pakistani territory.

....It was decided that the Vikrant would be used to blockade the ports in East Pakistan, and destroy the riverine craft used by the Pakistanis there.
http://www.freeindia.org/1971war/seawar.html


This all occurred in December, 1971. It was a simple tactic, but an obvious one to use. Two seperate geographical regions are a logistical nightmare. Bangladesh should have been given to the Bengalis from the moment of Partition in my opinion.

My dear Hongkong, my profession was the military and I dare say I have held a rank that does think about these issues and not merely killing the enemy on the battlefield!

The Rand Report and also the history of Indo Pak Wars indicate that wars can be sustained for 'x' period of time by Pakistan and 'y' period of time by India. Further, international intervention would come in by 'z' period of time.

Now if that be the case, then come hail or high waters, East Pakistan's military infrastructure should have been so engineered and constructed that it could sustain the maximum period India could wage war. It is as simple as that. Mrs Gandhi's eloquence is not the issue. She was stating the obvious - the obvious that the Pakistanis didn't care about since they didn't care about East Pakistan! Or are you stating that the West Pakistanis are blind chumps and could not see what Mrs Gandhi and the world knew, even non military men and women!

Now, if East Pakistan was geared structurally in combat ratio and in logistics to sustain East Pakistan to the mximum time India could wage a cogent war without collapsing because of a lack of war materiel or suffering a breakdown of economy, then obviously East Pakistan would be saved!

In other words, one need not have worried about the sea and Mrs Gandhi! The stuff would ahve alrady been in East Pakistan to sustain the Indian offensive!

Further, does it not prove that if Paskitan was serious about defending East Pakistan, then shouldn't they have positioned all the things that you claim were denied because of the sea and geographical disparity ab initio?

Now have you got that in your thin skinned skull or has your brains fallen off?

[Ray]

Hongkong,

I am off for the moment.

Roses are red, some willows weep, please leave your message, after the beep