How did the Mongol empire falter, and why was it that the Mongols were never able to recover their glory days in what is now China, after the Ming dynasty was established? In fact, how were the Chinese rebels able to defeat the Mongol dynasty, when during Kublai Khan's era, the Mongols won battle after battle with very few serious setbacks?
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The Mongols overran the Khitan, Jurchen and Chinese empires in the 12th century
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The Mongols fell into internal disarray during the Yuan Dynasty, then the Ming showwd up with massive well organized armies, Calvary formations trained and advised by mongol splinter factions, and large scale use of firearms.
At least, that's what i gathered from the last 30 page thread on this subject.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWell, no. Various Khanates lasted much longer than the Yuan Dynasty and the Persianized Mongols, the Mughals went on to conquer India.
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What's vaguely interesting is that the Mongols destroyed two kingdoms (Jurchen and Khitan) that might have evolved along English lines - where the Saxons imposed their language on the native Picts/Britons, thereby creating Saxon-speaking kingdoms (Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria and East Anglia) that eventually became England. While the Jurchens became Manchurians, who founded the Qing dynasty, it's clear there was no prospect of the Qing ever imposing the Jurchen language over the entire Chinese population who vastly outnumbered them.
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or, what if the Southern Song survived?There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostNot much different. The Southern Song was destined to fall. It was fat and corrupt.
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If memory serves, Song Dynasty executed one of their finest soldiers who was on the verge of destroying the rival Jin Dynasty up north.All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
-Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.
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Originally posted by Triple C View PostIf memory serves, Song Dynasty executed one of their finest soldiers who was on the verge of destroying the rival Jin Dynasty up north.
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Originally posted by Triple C View PostIf memory serves, Song Dynasty executed one of their finest soldiers who was on the verge of destroying the rival Jin Dynasty up north.
Later the Song allied with the Yuan to destroy the Jurchens. By that time the army was in such poor shape that its pitiful performance in the campaign gave the mongols the confidence to invade.
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Originally posted by citanon View PostLater the Song allied with the Yuan to destroy the Jurchens. By that time the army was in such poor shape that its pitiful performance in the campaign gave the mongols the confidence to invade.
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Did the Song assume the Mongols were more of the same desert rabble they had beaten repeatedly in the past, or did the sting of repeated defeats at the hands of the Jurchens blind them to the Mongol threat? You'd think Song spies would have provided ample intelligence about the methods used by the Mongols to literally exterminate the Khitans.
IF Genghis Khan were alive, he wouldn't see the Mughals as part of his clan or nation. The mughals were different from the Mongols.
The Mongols fell into internal disarray during the Yuan Dynasty, then the Ming showwd up with massive well organized armies, Calvary formations trained and advised by mongol splinter factions, and large scale use of firearms.
The mongols lost because they were not civilization builders. They just plunder and move on. They do not have staying power. They do not build the necessary foundation blocks that make up a last longing empire.To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway
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