Looking for documentation on the Ming / Qing tributary system

[Inst]

I'm looking for good sources detailing the Chinese tributary system. I can't find any decent main articles describing the Chinese tributary system, and I think it's a shame. On first glance, the Chinese tributary system looked as though it was a system of Chinese imperialism, but it was actually closer to the Chinese empire bribing its periphery states to acknowledge its supremacy and go get killed keeping other barbarians from its borders.

[pate]

By tributary, you mean monetary and not alluvial right? I don't think that even qualifies as a pun...

Anyhow, someone somewhere made a distinct impression on me by writing about the Chinese and something called a 'Hydraulic Empire'

Perhaps my awful reliance on wiki- will help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire

[Herodotus]

I'm looking for good sources detailing the Chinese tributary system. I can't find any decent main articles describing the Chinese tributary system, and I think it's a shame. On first glance, the Chinese tributary system looked as though it was a system of Chinese imperialism, but it was actually closer to the Chinese empire bribing its periphery states to acknowledge its supremacy and go get killed keeping other barbarians from its borders.

Are you looking for articles or books? Anything decent as far as articles you will have to look at JSTOR, if you have access to it. Also I assume you want sources in English, which further narrows the field.

[Guest]

It may not have exactly what you need, but it is intresting website

Hope this helps!!!

http://www.friesian.com/sangoku.htm#t'ang

[seskissinger]

中国和朝鲜是唇齿相依的邻国。两国间的友好交往和文化交流是久远的。洪武初年，明朝就与高丽王朝建立了宗属 关系。1392年，李成桂通过“禅让”登上王位，经明廷同意更改国号为朝鲜，自此两国一直保持着正常的宗属 关系。朱棣即位后，朝鲜最早派人前往南京祝贺朱棣登基。朱棣十分高兴。赏赐十分优厚并派遣宦官黄俨前往朝鲜 赐礼。朝鲜国王受宠若惊，亲自宴请明廷使者，并向使者问道：“皇帝何以厚我至此极也？”黄俨答道：“新登宝 位，天下诸侯未有朝者。独朝鲜遣上相进贺，帝嘉其忠诚，是以厚之。”自此朝鲜每年均遣使向明朝朝贡，“岁辄 四五至焉”。特别是每年正朝、节日、千秋，朝鲜都要进献方物。

永乐年间，朝鲜礼部议定：每年正朝，朝鲜要向明朝皇帝进献“黄纻布十匹，白纻布、麻布各二十匹，满花席二十 张，帘席二张，满花方席、黄席、彩色席各十张”。宣德年间又增“加马四十匹、麻布二十匹，满花席、黄花席、 彩花席各十张”。每逢节日，永乐年间朝鲜礼部议定，要向明朝皇帝进献“黄纻布十匹，白纻布、麻布各二十匹， 纻麻兼织布十匹，满花席、黄花席、彩花席各十张，帘席二张，人参五十斤、豹皮十张、獭皮二十张。”宣德年间 又增“加马四十匹，纳二十匹，麻布五十匹，满花席、黄花席、彩花席各十张，人参二十斤，豹皮六张，獭皮十张 ，黄毛笔二十支”。永乐年间，朝鲜礼部议定向明朝皇帝进献的千秋礼物是“白纻布、麻布各十六匹，满花席、黄 花席、彩花席各十张，人参二十斤，豹皮六张，獭皮十张，黄毛笔二十支”。宣德年间又增“加马十匹，纳十匹， 白纻布四匹，麻布四十四匹，满花席、彩花席各五张，人参二十斤”。此外，每次进献，皇后另备一 份。

除此之外，朝鲜每隔四年还要向明王朝进献种马一次，每次50匹。朝鲜政府为保证进献的种马合格，要求各道在 进献前两年就要把进献马选好，加意喂养，保证进献马都要高大而体壮。

宣德年间，朝鲜向明朝进贡的贡品发生了一些变化：

一是以土物代替金银。最初，朝鲜每年要向明朝纳贡黄金150两，白银700两，这对朝鲜来说是一个很重的负 担。宣德四年（1406年）十一月，朝鲜以金银非其国所产为由奏请免贡金银。朱瞻基征询廷臣的意见。史部尚 书称：“此乃高皇帝成法不可改也”。朱瞻基则认为：“朝鲜事大至诚，且远人之情，不可不听。朕以敕许免，毋 庸固执”，并答复朝鲜说：“金银并非本国所产，自今贡献，但以土物效诚”。因此宣德年间，朝鲜在正朝、节日 、千秋向明朝贡纳物品的数量才较永乐朝增加。

二是从要求进献鹰类，到停止进鹰。宣德三年（1428年），明朝赴朝鲜使节向朝鲜传谕：“若有佳鹰亦可进” 。但是宣德七年（1432年）十一月，朝鲜国王李鞨遣使臣向明廷进贡腌松菌和鹰。朱瞻基见后对礼部说：“朝 鲜贡献频数已非朕所欲。今献松菌和鹰。菌，食物也，鹰，何所用。珍禽异兽古人所戒。可谕其使，自今所贡，但 服食器用之物。若鹰犬之类，更勿进献”。可知宣德三年进鹰之谕并非朱瞻基所下。

三是自宣德元年（1426年）开始，明朝要求朝鲜，每年都要向明廷进献朝鲜少女。例如宣德元年，朝鲜向明廷 进献少女5名，执馔婢6名。宣德二年（1427年），朝鲜向明廷进献少女7人，执馔婢10人，女使16人， 火者10人。

整个仁宣时期，朝鲜对明朝都是小心翼翼地尽着属国对宗主国的职责。每逢过年过节都要朝贺和定期贡献，因此每 年都是数贡。

洪熙元年（1425年）九月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣李原、睦进等“奉表、贡马及方物。贺上（指朱瞻基）即位及 尊皇太后、册中宫”。

宣德元年（1426年）五次贡：正月，朝鲜国王李鞨遣陪臣韩长奇等“奉表、贡金银器皿等方物贺正旦”。五月 ，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣南辉等“奉表、贡马及方物，谢赐彩币恩”。八月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣金时遇等“贡马及 方物至京师”。十月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣李叔当等向明廷贡马。十二月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣韩尚德等赴明“贡 金银器皿及方物，贺明年正旦”。

宣德二年（1427年）十二月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣韩文贵等“奉表及方物，贺明年正旦”。

宣德三年（1428年）三次贡：闰四月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣李忠善等向明廷贡马及献方物。九月，朝鲜国王李 裪遣陪臣向明廷“奉表，贡马及方物”。十二月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣柳毅等向明廷“贡马、方物，贺明年正旦” 。

宣德四年（1429年）五次贡：二月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣朴实等同明廷“贡马及方物，谢赐世子冠服”。同月 ，朝鲜国王李裪又遣陪臣柳思纳向明廷贡马及方物。七月，朝鲜国王李裪又遣陪臣李中至等向明廷贡马及方物。十 一月，朝鲜国王遣其弟向明廷奉表贡方物。同月，朝鲜国王李裪遣陪臣元悯生、洪师锡等赴明贡方物 。

宣德五年（1430年）七次贡：正月，朝鲜国王遣陪臣吴陞等向明廷“贡金银器皿等方物”。二月，陪臣徐选向 明廷贡马及方物。六月，遣陪臣文贵向明廷贡方物，谢“赏赐朝鲜世子冠服之恩”。九月，遣陪臣李皎向明廷贡方 物，谢恩。十一月，遣陪臣郑渊，“贡马及方物，贺皇太子千秋节。”闰十二月，陪臣崔士仪等向明廷“贡马及物 ，贺正旦”。

明初，明朝与朝鲜之间的贸易十分发达。大约在公元四世纪，中国的造纸技术传入朝鲜。十世纪以后，朝鲜的造纸 技术有了飞快的发展。明初，朝鲜已经设置了造纸所，生产出大批优质的纸张。所以这个时期，朝鲜向中国输出的 大量商品是纸张。比如永乐十七年（1419年）明朝从朝鲜进“纯白厚纸一万八千张，纯白次厚纸七千张”。永 乐十八年（1420年），明朝又从朝鲜进“三万五千张”。除了纸张以外，朝鲜向明朝输出的商品主要是土特产 ，特别是各类皮张、人参、鹰犬和各类海产品。如宣德元年（1426年），朝鲜向明朝输出狐皮1000领。明 朝提出希望朝鲜能进献海东青及其地的鹰类。宣德三年（1428年），朝鲜向明朝进献“鸦骨十连，大狗二十三 只，熟鹿皮三百张”，又进“乾年鱼二千尾，大口鱼一千尾，年鱼子十瓶，大文鱼三百尾”。明朝向朝鲜输出的物 品主要是绢帛、瓷器以及乐器、书籍和药材。《李朝实录》就记载：“本朝乐器、书籍、药材等物，须赖中国而备 之，贸易不可断绝”。


Sorry I just get this Chinese version .It's about China and Korea's tributary

[xinhui]

Inst,

Sorry for the late reply, but you are missing an very important point about the tributary system, especially during the early Ming period, trade.

Import and export tax went directly into the Ming imperial house not the state, In fact, it was the imperial house the funded Zheng He's venture to Africa.

There are volumes of works written about tributary as an important means to promote trade, it has been a while since I have deal with that period so I need to dig those old reference up. As a side note, think of this; Ming as a trade empire where as the early Qing as a military empire.

[Inst]

I actually don't have an adequate understanding of the distinction between an imperial house and the state and the relationship between the hereditary ruler and the government apparatus. I know in the Song Dynasty a proto-system of checks and balances was established to allow the government to run adequately even with an incompetent Emperor, and in the Ming Dynasty Zhu Yuanzhang abolished the Prime Ministerial position, concentrating power on the Emperor.

Regarding hydraulic despotism, realizing that without a solid grounding in political science my capacity to understand and use the China watchers text on the CPC organization would be limited (I can tell what they're saying but it's hard for me to figure out when they're spouting bullcrap), I decided the put off the books xinhui recommended to me for later. Instead, I'm reading "The Retreat of the Elephants" by Mark Elvin. In the 6th chapter, where he details the economic system of "late Imperial China", he takes the system of waterworks as a unifying motif. According to Mark Elvin, Karl Wittfogel's characterization that China is a hydraulic despotism is incomplete; there were definitely elements that fit his hypothesis but at the same time, the social relations that emerged from the waterworks could range from "consultative oligarchy" to "proto-democracy", illustrating his point with examples of the magistrate in charge of an area calling to assembly the social luminaries in order to resolve waterworks problems, or a community living in a polder collectively providing assistance against polder breaches as the failure of one segment could threaten the entire community.

All in all, it's a very interesting book and increasingly affordable at $25 in paperback. I love the aspects describing the pre-modern Chinese economy in moderare detail, I wonder why I haven't found more popular economic histories. Perhaps wars and intellectuals are more popular, or perhaps it's my newfound interest, I wasn't previously aware of this subject and would thus have no knowledge of titles.

[xinhui]

Inst,

again, sorry for the late reply, Mark Elvin is a good pick, I highly recommend it. You might also want to check out his "The Pattern of the Chinese Past" as well, it will answer most of your questions.

[Inst]

A bit worried on Chinese history books pre-80s; Brad DeLong got into a flame war on the Frog In A Well blog with the academics there, when one of the academics mentioned that now that Brad is teaching an overview on Chinese economic history, he knows exactly how much about China the average freshman student doesn't know. One of the points mentioned was that there was a large revolution in historical understanding of Qing China, recently, and I guess astralis corroborates it by denigrating the inclusion of Fairbanks in the China reading list thread.