Yuan Shikai

[cuba]

Do you think that Yuan Shikai was simply a petty dictator who used tradition to justify and enforce his rule? Or do you think he was indeed a traditionalist?

I am undecided on this one because if you study his rule it becomes evident that he did have traditionalist views and these views played an important part in his rule. However, on other hand, he could have been using these views expediently, to gain widespread support from the people and hold to the country together.

[dave lukins]

Do you think that Yuan Shikai was simply a petty dictator who used tradition to justify and enforce his rule? Or do you think he was indeed a traditionalist?

Cuba, do you think that anyone who declares himself as Emperor as a "petty Dictator":))

[astralis]

cuba,

yuan shikai was both an opportunist and a traditionalist. in fact, part of the reason why he declared himself emperor after the 1911 revolution was because 1. he thought it'd be good for himself 2. he thought it'd be good for china 3. he thought that would be what the people wanted.

so out of the options you gave...he was both. yuan shikai would have done well had he been emperor in the 1880s or 1890s...he just wasn't good twenty five some years later.

[dave lukins]

yuan shikai would have done well had he been emperor in the 1880s or 1890s...he just wasn't good twenty five some years later.

Sadly(or otherwise) for the Country he only lived for 6 months as Emperor and died a fairly young man.

[xinhui]

An interesting fact,

When declared as the new Emperor of China, he was recognized as the “best option” by the ‘western powers’ , while Russian was the only one willing to give Dr Sun military aid/loan to build his military academy.

[dave lukins]

An interesting fact,

When declared as the new Emperor of China, he was recognized as the “best option” by the ‘western powers’ , while Russian was the only one willing to give Dr Sun military aid/loan to build his military academy.

"In 1895 a coup he plotted failed, and for the next sixteen years Sun was an exile in Europe, the United States, Canada, and Japan, raising money for his revolutionary party and bankrolling uprisings in China."

Sun Yat-sen didn't last too long either..3 months as President of the Republic.
However he is immortalised in the Taiwan NT$100 bill;)

[xinhui]

money from government or individuals?

[dave lukins]

money from government or individuals?

I don't think Governments are going to admit it now;)

He spent his time in USA Canada and Japan.

"He spent, on and off, about ten years in Japan while befriending and being financially aided by a democratic revolutionary and a ronin in Japan, Miyazaki Toten (1871-1922).

[xinhui]

The Soviet Government admitted.

[dave lukins]

The Soviet Government admitted.

Sorry, I can't find anything on his dealings with the Soviets..I will dig deeper;)

[dave lukins]

This seems to confirm what you are saying


"Sun Yat-sen, letter to Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Communist Party (1925)

I leave behind me a party which, as has always been my wish, will be bound up with you in the historic work of the final liberation of China and other exploited nations from the imperialist order. By the will of fate, I must leave my work unfinished and hand it over to those who, remaining true to the principles and teachings of the party, will show themselves to be my true followers.

Taking leave of you, dear comrades, I want to express the hope that the day will come when the U.S.S.R. will welcome a friend and ally in a mighty, free China, and that in the great struggle for the liberation of the oppressed peoples of the world, both these allies will go forward to victory hand in hand."

[astralis]

dave,

that's not surprising- sun yat-sen always had socialist leanings (one of the three principles of the people). he was also a big time politician (read: suck-up)- that's how he got funding for his secret society.

as for yuan shikai being supported by the west, yes, quite a few individuals, particularly the british, liked him. yuan had some pretty close british friends from his earlier days. not only that, quite a few westerners thought that china was simply not ready for democracy, and that a firm emperor would be a better cure for china's ills.

oops.

anyway, as for yuan shikai's character, taking a look at his history:

-he betrayed his former principal (and supporter), li hung-chang, when it was politically convenient,
-he betrayed the emperor when the reforming emperor called upon him for support against the dowager empress,
-he betrayed the dynasty when it seemed clear that the revolutionaries were winning,
-he betrayed the revolutionaries when he figured he could have a shot at emperor himself.

the man was, ah, flexible in his loyalties, shall we say.

[dave lukins]

dave,

that's not surprising- sun yat-sen always had socialist leanings (one of the three principles of the people). he was also a big time politician (read: suck-up)- that's how he got funding for his secret society.

as for yuan shikai being supported by the west, yes, quite a few individuals, particularly the british, liked him. yuan had some pretty close british friends from his earlier days. not only that, quite a few westerners thought that china was simply not ready for democracy, and that a firm emperor would be a better cure for china's ills.

oops.

anyway, as for yuan shikai's character, taking a look at his history:

-he betrayed his former principal (and supporter), li hung-chang, when it was politically convenient,
-he betrayed the emperor when the reforming emperor called upon him for support against the dowager empress,
-he betrayed the dynasty when it seemed clear that the revolutionaries were winning,
-he betrayed the revolutionaries when he figured he could have a shot at emperor himself.

the man was, ah, flexible in his loyalties, shall we say.

Once he put down the Boxer Uprising he certainly became everyones buddy;)

Once in Power nobody seems to last too long...they were worse than the Roman Senate, everyone stabbing each other in the back

[cuba]

Once he put down the Boxer Uprising he certainly became everyones buddy;)

Once in Power nobody seems to last too long...they were worse than the Roman Senate, everyone stabbing each other in the back

He probably would have lasted longer had he not proclaimed himself emoperor. :))

[xinhui]

Wow, I love this thread, folks are doing research to find out answers!


I just open a text book next to me and found this.

page 580 t0 581 from Immanuel C.Y Hsu's the rise of modern China, second edition.

To forestall foreign opposition Yuan agreed to accept the infamous 21 demands from Japan, and signed agreements with Russia and Britain recognizing their special interests and positions positions in outer Mongolia and Tibet, He was further heaterned by an intriguing, if noncommittal, statement of the Japanese premier, Okuma, to the effect that should China became a monarchy her political system would be identical with Japan's; that since Yuan was already in full control of China's political power a change to the monarchy would bring the situation more in accord with reality. Yuan took it to mean a Japanese endorsement of his monarchical dreams.

Yuen's American adviser on constitutional matter, Dr. Frank J Goodnow, who was the president of the Johns Hopkins University, published an article in which he stated that Americans had long doubted the fitness of a republic for China, where the tradition of autocracy would make constitutional monarchy a far more suitable institution.