The accuracy of the Bible

[tankie]

Southern Methodist Diwali Pamphlet is a scan of the pamphlet for the diwali campaign, I believe. Its mostly lies parading as facts.

I found it mildly annoying but coupled with the fact that a few days after I saw this, a person(unrelated) came knocking a my door asking me to "see the light" meant it stayed in memory. Not illegal not very civil either.

Yea we have them in the U/K also , commonly called the sunday morning pain in the arse , or to be civil , Mormons or Jehovha,s witnesses , and they never believe it when told ,, sorry i cant help ,,, now piss off ,i never saw the accident .

[Gun Grape]

Most blue laws are not enforced anymore, or have been repealed. And that's not imposition of religion.

So what do you call it? Laws are written that prohibit me from doing something that is legal on every day EXCEPT the christian day of worship.
Thats not christians imposing their beliefs on me?

Your claim was:
would be like using politics to impose your beliefs upon the populace, and using education to indoctrinate the next generation.*

Christians do neither.

But, since there is no evidence of forced conversion; and since no one's forcing you to go to church, nor practice any of our beliefs, I think that you'll survive, and in so doing, you'll look up the meaning of religious imposition.

That wasn't what you claimed in your post. And i am forced to practice your beliefs.

By forbidding me to work on sunday the Blue Laws are making me follow your 4th commandment: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. "

or : But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work..." (Exodus 20:10).

Completely untrue. Those acts were commited by splinter far-right wing political groups-there are no such Christian groups.

You mean like former Presbyterian minister Paul Hill who killed a Doctor and his bodyguard in P-cola?

or the Lutheran Rev. Michael Bray who was convicted of two counts of conspiracy and one count of possessing unregistered explosive devices in relation to 10 bombings of women's health clinics and offices of liberal advocacy groups in Washington, D.C., Maryland and Virginia.

Or groups like The Lambs of Christ, The Army of God.

Just a few examples in the US.

Sad how christians are quick to write off people who commit act of terrorism under the christian banner as "not real christians" but will condem the whole Muslim faith for the acts of a few

[ExNavyAmerican]

So what do you call it? Laws are written that prohibit me from doing something that is legal on every day EXCEPT the christian day of worship.

Thats not christians imposing their beliefs on me?

I already told you: left-overs from a previously Christian country. If we really were imposing our beliefs on you, you wouldn't be drinking at all. The only blue laws still in effect are kept there because businesses like a day where they can be off without worrying about competitors. And now, most stores are open by about noon-I know that because I've gone to the store on Sundays. And the percentage of people in America who were not Christians at the time the blue laws were passed equaled maybe 1% of the population.

So, no: that's not imposing our beliefs on you. You don't have to go to Church; you don't have to pray, you don't have to read the Bible, you don't have to profess Christianity, ect. If the only "examples" of Christians imposing their beliefs on you you can find are 400-year old laws that are no longer in effect except by popular demand, then you must really be desparate. Sharia Law is religious imposition. The Judaic Law is religious imposition. The 1000 year reign of Christ WILL be religious imposition.

That wasn't what you claimed in your post. And i am forced to practice your beliefs.

I'm at a loss to figure out what you mean. I said in my post that we do not impose our beliefs on you, and I said it again in this post.

By forbidding me to work on sunday the Blue Laws are making me follow your 4th commandment: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. "

or : But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work..." (Exodus 20:10).

Those are commandments given to the nation of Israel. They are not applicable to Christians because we were given a new code of living in the New Testament. Anyway, the Hebrew sabbath was from Friday Evening until Saturday evening: note the absence of Sunday in this description.

You mean like former Presbyterian minister Paul Hill who killed a Doctor and his bodyguard in P-cola?

or the Lutheran Rev. Michael Bray who was convicted of two counts of conspiracy and one count of possessing unregistered explosive devices in relation to 10 bombings of women's health clinics and offices of liberal advocacy groups in Washington, D.C., Maryland and Virginia.

Paul Hill was mentally ill. And these have been refuted. Imo, if Hill wasn't mentally ill, he should have been executed for murder. Bray had no excuse. Did he get the death penalty? He should have.

Or groups like The Lambs of Christ, The Army of God.

Those groups mentioned are Catholic groups: Catholic does not equal Christian. I will not deny that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the most murderous, and evil organizations in history.

Sad how christians are quick to write off people who commit act of terrorism under the christian banner as "not real christians" but will condem the whole Muslim faith for the acts of a few

Well, if they're Catholics; they're not real Christians=fact. Bu I'll give some difference bewtween Christians and Muslims who've used violence (at the danger of going off subject)-

1. The Qu'ran preaches that killing is okay in the name of Allah. And that "minorty" has never been defined.

2. Christians have refuted the acts of violence; the Muslim community has not.

3. Have Catholics ever attacked the United States or any other country? What are the casualty lists from both sides?

4. You take less than ten examples of violence on the part of Catholics and maybe a few Christians and declare that Christianity is no different from Islam in that regard. Which, of course, it is different because of reasons given above.

[entropy]

I'm pretty sure the Roman college of priests was not required to be celibate. JC surely was not. And he was Pontifex Maximus after 63BCE. Only the vestal virgins who tended the fires of Vesta fit the bill.

Not to take away from your message but just pointing out what I thought was an error.

Point taken. Although nuns and Vestals have to be chaste, so it's still a similarity there.

[entropy]

You're still missing my point. The structure and practices of the organization and the content of the message are completely separate. While I don't think you meant to disparage Catholicism or any of its christian derivations, your characterization of Catholicism as a collection of pagan rituals marked marked by the selling of dispensations and Roman-type structure is wide of the mark. However, if you were applying those characteristics to the Catholic Church (the temporal organization), I would agree with you.

What one must appreciate is that an original body of teaching inspires its original followers to organize a bricks and mortar system and a personnel structure to widen its reach and pass it along to future generations. Over time, the system evolves. There are power stuggles, disagreements, recruitment problems, financial shortages, and so on.

Pagan rituals found their way into the system because certain pagan groups were allowed to keep some of their rituals and festivals when they converted. You can see a lot of that in South America where, for example, Peruvian natives continue to celebrate ancient Inca fertility rites. But in spite of it all, the imperfect organization continues to carry the original message fairly intact from one generation to the other.

You can appreciate the message without tolerating the messenger. Many of those who don't appreciate the message, attempt to disparage it by attacking the messenger. I don't know where you stand in this regard. If you are merely poking around in history, that's fine, but you should at least be clear as to whether you are speaking of the message or the messenger.

A messenger is supposed to deliver a message, not to form it to his own behalf. This is what the Catholics do. Pagan rituals were adopted due to the reasons you mention, but also because the Roman clerics were always an institute of power, and they didn't want to lose it. That's why they deformed the message.
Remember the panic when Luther started translating Bibles?

[entropy]

In the Christian religion "The Trinity Is One God",..............

1. God the creator of all things the head of all things is one with,......

2. The Holy Spirit the spirit of God that moves and speaks to men here on Earth,......

3. The Son of God (Christ Jesus) who came to redeem men to himself, who is born of man (the flesh), through Mary and born of God through the seed of God. Jesus is God come to live in the flesh to be both a savior and mediator for mankind. Jesus is the fullness of God in the form of man, who suffered as a man without sinning. Jesus is the perfect sacrafice covering over the sins of Adam that took place in the Garden of Eden. He layed down His life (His flesh) as a perfected human being in the flesh. God's original plan in the Garden of Eden was for man to live in perfact fellowship with Him. He gave freewill to men to choose to follow Him and obey Him. But with freewill came a price. That price for those rebelling against His will would be physical and spiritual death. Adam, Eve and the son's and daughters of men waltzed by their own choice into sin. God loved them so much that He sent His Son as a perfect sacrafice to redeem us from death.

God, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus are One and the same. Different manifestations of ONE God. The Ideal was there all along. In attempting to define it the Catholic Church added the word trinity I believe to help people to understand it. As many people at the time may have pondered the mysteries of th scriptures as we do today. Now people probably misinterpret that the trinity is some how a polytheistic version of Christianity concocted by the Catholics. It is my view that they were trying to explain the three attributes of God by using the word trinity.

I am not Catholic but have met some Catholics that are very much "Born again" Christians by even the Evangelical definition. I'm not attempting to split hairs, Jesus says to be born again. The Holy Spirit will dwell in those who are born again. In turn the Holy Spirit will not disapoint us as it is the spirit of God.


May Gods Spirit Dwell in all...

Ivan

The Trinity is a disputed element in church that is still a source for raging theological debate. A prostestant priest said that the only reason he accepts it in the dogmas of his church is that is serves as a thought exercise.

I was not referring to the Trinity as polytheism. I was referring to the worship of Mary, and the God Factory by taking people and placing St. in front of their names. JHVH is not happy with that, as he wasn't happy when Aaron & friends made a golden bovine statue to worship. Not to worship any other gods than JHVH is one of the 10 main rules. Catholics break it, but they probably use lawyer-like speech to justify it.

[Gun Grape]

The only blue laws still in effect are kept there because businesses like a day where they can be off without worrying about competitors.

Bull crap,
I like a day when I can make money. Also, from local experence, whenever the local businesses try to get blue laws taken off the books, it only the local churches that cause a stink.

They are also the ones that try to ban alcohol sales. DId you see the idiot from alabama that tried to make Athens a dry city. You know "Cause thats what "God" wants.

And now, most stores are open by about noon-I know that because I've gone to the store on Sundays. And the percentage of people in America who were not Christians at the time the blue laws were passed equaled maybe 1% of the population.

So the churches should have no problem with having those laws removed in the 25 states that still have Blue laws.

Those are commandments given to the nation of Israel. They are not applicable to Christians because we were given a new code of living in the New Testament. Anyway, the Hebrew sabbath was from Friday Evening until Saturday evening: note the absence of Sunday in this description.

I'm not a religous person, but you are the first person I've ever heard claim that the 10 Commandments don't apply to christians.

Paul Hill was mentally ill. And these have been refuted. Imo, if Hill wasn't mentally ill, he should have been executed for murder.

Well the State of Florida didn't view him as Mentally Ill. He was executed in 2003

Those groups mentioned are Catholic groups: Catholic does not equal Christian. I will not deny that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the most murderous, and evil organizations in history.

The Army of God isn't a Catholic group. The only AoG person that has said they were a Catholic was Rudolph. Hill was a AoG member, the whacko Neal Horsley is a spokeman for the AoG

But if we want to branch out how about the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India that is funded by Baptist?

So are Cathlics responsible for all the 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons,1264 incidences of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid against abortion clinics?

And where were the religous leaders condemning all those acts?

[brokensickle]

Agreed......

The Trinity is a disputed element in church that is still a source for raging theological debate. A prostestant priest said that the only reason he accepts it in the dogmas of his church is that is serves as a thought exercise.

I was not referring to the Trinity as polytheism. I was referring to the worship of Mary, and the God Factory by taking people and placing St. in front of their names. JHVH is not happy with that, as he wasn't happy when Aaron & friends made a golden bovine statue to worship. Not to worship any other gods than JHVH is one of the 10 main rules. Catholics break it, but they probably use lawyer-like speech to justify it.

This is the same impression I get from the Catholic Church as it seems to treat Mary and the Apostles and some of the followers latter in history in an idol sort of fashion.

I would like to hear a Catholic explain these points to hear their take on the subject as it does give the appearance of polytheism on the surface to me also.



Ivan:)

[Ray]

Broken,

Even if you view the Cross, that is also an idol!

An idol does not have to have a human form or does it? I am not too sure.

The term idol comes from the Greek word eidos, which means "form." In practice it refers to any manifestation of a deity in some physical form - either as a symbol or even as a human. The idol is not simply an image, but is an image which is actively worshipped as containing or manifesting a divine presence.

[Ray]

To add to the debate, here is another angle:

Why Feminizing the Trinity Won't Work

A Metaphysical Perspective

The Rev. Cynthia Bourgeault, Ph.D.

Download article (pdf, 32kb)

In recent years it has become increasingly fashionable in liberal theological circles to envision the third person of the Trinity as feminine. For many reasons both linguistic and archetypal this designation seems to fit. It can be argued that the Holy Spirit is really identical with Sophia, the wisdom of God, personified as female in the Old Testament; that the "spirit" words in our Biblical tradition tend to be feminine; and that in its intuitive, indwelling perceptivity, the Spirit embodies a "feminine" way of knowing and being which counterbalances the more "masculine" knowing and being of the Logos, or "Word made flesh" in the male personhood of Jesus Christ(1).

Certainly, from a practical standpoint, this gender corrective yields tremendous gains. If, as seems sadly true, the Church's exclusively male representation of the inner life of God laid the theological groundwork for an exclusively male political hierarchy which has systematically devalued the place of both the feminine and women in Christianity, then an authentic female representation among the persons of the Trinity would seem a graceful way to redress the grievance and correct the imbalances that have distorted so many areas of the Church's life.

But while, as a woman, I wish it could be done so simply, I am more and more convinced that it can't. It is "doing the right thing for the wrong reason." For in this case, the extremely shortsighted metaphysical thinking it introduces is likely to do a lot more damage than the short-range good accomplished. However laudable the attempt to secure a feminine presence in the Trinity, the present strategy leads to a serious confusion of metaphysical systems whose long-range effect will be to leave Christianity adrift in a post-Jungian archetypal sea, its own intuitive genius fatally blunted, and divine revelation itself compromised.

More at:

Shape of God Conference Retreat

[ExNavyAmerican]

Bull crap,
I like a day when I can make money. Also, from local experence, whenever the local businesses try to get blue laws taken off the books, it only the local churches that cause a stink.

Are we talking about the same United States? All the places I've lived in the US (a lot of places) have absolutely no problems. Maybe you live in Pensacola, or some other Bible Belt hot zone. But I've lived in Pensacola, has more chuches than all of Asia, and there were never any problems reported. And it seems to me that the very anti-Christian media would jump on the chance to proclaim persecution by Christians. Look up the Blue Laws.

They are also the ones that try to ban alcohol sales. DId you see the idiot from alabama that tried to make Athens a dry city. You know "Cause thats what "God" wants.

The guy is indeed an idiot. God doesn't want to ban alcohol sales. Christians aren't supposed to drink, but that the limit of the Biblical commandment in regards to liquor. God wants all to be saved; liqour is low on His list of priorities.

So the churches should have no problem with having those laws removed in the 25 states that still have Blue laws.

Again, look up the Blue Laws. You are likening them to Sharia Law when all they are is impotent. No longer enforced. You're making a big thing out of nothing. If you look them up, they're retained as a matter of tradition and convenience. They're the reason we have days off on sundays. They're also related to the laws that give us days off on Thanksgiving, and Christmas as well. What, praytell, are you complaining about? Even though Thanksgiving isn't entirely religious, Christmas would be a working day. I've come to the realization that you must be looking for something to complain about because no one would complain about laws that give us a two-day weekend.

I'm not a religous person, but you are the first person I've ever heard claim that the 10 Commandments don't apply to christians.

You're right; you're not a religious person. So learn. I mistated. What I meant is that that particular commandment no longer applied because Paul told Christians to gather on the first day of the week. The Hebrew sabbath takes place at the end of the week.

Well the State of Florida didn't view him as Mentally Ill. He was executed in 2003

Well, the law found him guilty. I'm all for the death penalty, so I'm glad he was executed. He's a murderer. He's the type of person that gives the rest of us a bad name. But compare this to a case of an American citizen who fought for the Taliban, commiting treason in the process, is only given 20 years. And now they want to overturn that! It's not a level playing field. I hope your happy. Christianity is slowly losing influence, and the country is going to hell.

The Army of God isn't a Catholic group. The only AoG person that has said they were a Catholic was Rudolph. Hill was a AoG member, the whacko Neal Horsley is a spokeman for the AoG

Yes it is. As a matter of fact, it is a sort of spinoff from the "Army of Mary" group that was excommunicated by the Catholic Church. Which, by the way, is more the the Muslim "majority" has done about the acts of Jihad.

But if we want to branch out how about the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India that is funded by Baptist?

New to me. Please cite your source so I can give an informed response.

So are Cathlics responsible for all the 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons,1264 incidences of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid against abortion clinics?

Anything that Catholics, or even a few Christians have done cannot hold candles to acts by the Islamic Jihadists. I trust you realize this. Any acts commited should be punished fully. I refute them myself. Murderers should be executed, Christian or not. It is not for the individual to take the law into his own hands.

But, to answer your question, I daresay most of them.
And, since your in such a hurry to liken Christianity to the religion of the Jihadists, give me one verse in the Bible that okays killing in the name of God.

And where were the religous leaders condemning all those acts?

They always condemned them. Even the most Bible-thumping, rebellious Baptist churches I've been have condemned them. I don't look at Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwel (certainly not anymore) as leaders. I believe in the local church. Therefore, pastors are leaders; not televangelists. None of them have proven themselves fountains of wisdom (in contrast to Charles Wesley, or DL Moody for example) to make them leaders, anyway.

I will agree that Christianity has left a mark on the United States-a very good mark; it makes the United States what is. One such mark is freedom of religion. You don't get that from the Vatican, from Sharia Law, from Buddhism even. It comes from the Christians concept of freewill. (excluding Calvinists: they don't believe in freewill)

[ExNavyAmerican]

Broken,

Even if you view the Cross, that is also an idol!

An idol does not have to have a human form or does it? I am not too sure.

The term idol comes from the Greek word eidos, which means "form." In practice it refers to any manifestation of a deity in some physical form - either as a symbol or even as a human. The idol is not simply an image, but is an image which is actively worshipped as containing or manifesting a divine presence.

I 100% agree. The cross is an idol. There is no symbol of the Christian church. I could get into a very subjective argument about the symbol of Christianity, but I'll refrain.

[Gun Grape]

Again, look up the Blue Laws. You are likening them to Sharia Law when all they are is impotent. No longer enforced. You're making a big thing out of nothing.

No you are trying to backpeddle. I never said that they were the same as other religous laws. Just refuting your assumption that Christians don't try to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.

If you look them up, they're retained as a matter of tradition and convenience. They're the reason we have days off on sundays. They're also related to the laws that give us days off on Thanksgiving, and Christmas as well. What, praytell, are you complaining about? Even though Thanksgiving isn't entirely religious, Christmas would be a working day. I've come to the realization that you must be looking for something to complain about because no one would complain about laws that give us a two-day weekend.

Oh those "Formerly religous laws" are now just retained "as a matter of tradition". Its not a religous thing anymore. Like christians don't commit terrorist acts. Only Catholics, and everybody knows they arn't "real" christians.
What Bullcrap. If I wasn't afraid I'd get banned, I'd tell you how I really feel.

Well, the law found him guilty. I'm all for the death penalty, so I'm glad he was executed. He's a murderer. He's the type of person that gives the rest of us a bad name. But compare this to a case of an American citizen who fought for the Taliban, commiting treason in the process, is only given 20 years. And now they want to overturn that! It's not a level playing field. I hope your happy. Christianity is slowly losing influence, and the country is going to hell.

Who is this Taliban fighter?

Yes it is. As a matter of fact, it is a sort of spinoff from the "Army of Mary" group that was excommunicated by the Catholic Church. Which, by the way, is more the the Muslim "majority" has done about the acts of Jihad.

How about a reference on that.

None of the AoG people(except 1) and none of the spokepersons are Catholic. And they have nothing to do with the Army of Mary. They don't mention any Catholic references on their website. And the website is ran by a Pentecostal minister. The Rev Donald Spitz.

Damn those Catholics sure are sneaky (sarcasm), having non-catholics run their christian terrorist operation, and recruiting non catholics to do the dirty work. Brilliant idea if there are no catholics in the AoG, they can get away scott free. No one would ever pin those crimes on a religion that wasn't there, well except you.

New to me. Please cite your source so I can give an informed response.

Google it. Or ask some of our Indian posters. Might also look some of these Christian groups up also.

Uganda Democratic Christian Army

Lord's Resistance Army

They always condemned them. Even the most Bible-thumping, rebellious Baptist churches I've been have condemned them. I don't look at Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwel (certainly not anymore) as leaders. I believe in the local church. Therefore, pastors are leaders; not televangelists. None of them have proven themselves fountains of wisdom (in contrast to Charles Wesley, or DL Moody for example) to make them leaders, anyway.

I've seen some backhanded condemnations from a few pastors but please cite a few references of Christians condemning bombers and killers.

You ask that all Imans condemn the acts of a few Jihadist. Show me where there was an overwelming outpouring of condemnation from Christian leaders when christians commit acts of terrorism.

[ExNavyAmerican]

No you are trying to backpeddle. I never said that they were the same as other religous laws. Just refuting your assumption that Christians don't try to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.

Oh those "Formerly religous laws" are now just retained "as a matter of tradition". Its not a religous thing anymore. Like christians don't commit terrorist acts.

How am I back pedlling? There was imposition in history. But, you must understand, everyone was either Christian or Catholic in history so it was always a case of one denomination imposing their beliefs on another. Like Anglican vs. Puritan; later Puritan vs. Anglican; Puritan vs. Quaker. Those puritans are the most guilty because they believe that they are the one true church. They had a theocratic state in Zurich, Switzerland. All this to say, it was one denomination vs. another. And it's no longer a problem against anyone anyomore.

You're truly sad if you think that the blue laws impose beliefs on the rest of America. If you want to work on Sunday, get a second job. Most stores are open after 12:00. Yes, it's so everyone can go to church. That's not religious imposition; it's called religious freedom. You want freedom to do what you want on Sunday mornings, but deny it to people who want to go to church. If you don't see that the Blue Laws are tame, and provide no incovenience to anyone, except those who go to the trouble of making them inconvenient; that they were originally what provided everyone with the oppurtunity to go to church, therefore providing freedom to practice their religion, then I'm not going to try and make you see. I'm getting bored. THey are the result of Christian influence; but that's alright because so is the 1st amendment Christian influence.

Oh those "Formerly religous laws" are now just retained "as a matter of tradition". Its not a religous thing anymore. Like christians don't commit terrorist acts.

Well it isn't religious anymore. I notice that you don't actually counter-point anything I said.

So a very few commit terror acts. At least that very few is noticeable, unlike in Islam where that Muslim minority sure gets around.

Who is this Taliban fighter?

His name is John Walker Lindh

Is that all you have to say?

[ExNavyAmerican]

How about a reference on that.

None of the AoG people(except 1) and none of the spokepersons are Catholic. And they have nothing to do with the Army of Mary. They don't mention any Catholic references on their website. And the website is ran by a Pentecostal minister. The Rev Donald Spitz.

Damn those Catholics sure are sneaky (sarcasm), having non-catholics run their christian terrorist operation, and recruiting non catholics to do the dirty work. Brilliant idea if there are no catholics in the AoG, they can get away scott free. No one would ever pin those crimes on a religion that wasn't there, well except you.

.................................................. ................................................

I've seen some backhanded condemnations from a few pastors but please cite a few references of Christians condemning bombers and killers.

You ask that all Imans condemn the acts of a few Jihadist. Show me where there was an overwelming outpouring of condemnation from Christian leaders when christians commit acts of terrorism.

This subject is getting old so I'm going to answer in general.

There are violent Christians who should be and are termed terrorists, and I won't defend the murderers.

But that doesn't change the vast differences between Islamic Jihadists and anti-Christian behavior.

Their acts cannot be justified by the Bible

They may be saved, but are not good Christians because Christian means Christ-like, and He wouldn't do what they do.

(notwithstanding the fact that it doesn't make them right) Statistically, the few acts of Christian terrorism that have ever happened in this world pale in comparasin to the acts of Jihad commited by Muslims. You're basically belittling the acts of Jihadists by implying, "you guys are no better than them". Not true for obvious mathematical religion. Christianity (ie. NOT Catholicism) does not have a habit of violently spreading itself.

Finally, Christians readily refute such acts

Islam in contrast:

acts of Jihad can be justified by numerous passages in the Qu'ran (i'm warning you now I'm not going to the trouble of citing Qu'ran passages; you know they're there)

Those Muslims who commit such acts are the good Muslims because the Qu'ran warns against moderate Muslims

The acts of Jihad have killed millions over a 1400 year history

Muslims don't refute the acts of "the clear minority"; rather they give excuse for them.

Uganda Democratic Christian Army

Lord's Resistance Army

These two are the same thing; UDCA changed it's name. I just find it as evidence of your lack of authority on the subject.