India's indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant ready for sea-trials

[desertswo]

IIRC, anything over 7 knots is a sonar bullseye being painted on your hull.

Depends, and that's all I'm saying.

[SteveDaPirate]

IIRC, anything over 7 knots is a sonar bullseye being painted on your hull.

That may be true, I don't know enough about submarine operations to dispute it anyhow. The crux of my argument was that nuclear subs have the ability to respond to any crisis by "Getting there the firstest with the mostest" to misquote Nathan Bedford Forrest.

The NPT forbids the sale of the 688 from the US to Australia.

Learned something new, thanks.

[Firestorm]

I always admire these brave men, especially in trials. Civilian nuclear reactors are shielded by yards of concrete. It must be balls of steel to sit next to a reactor with inches of alloy ... and in a testing stage ... in a ready made coffin already at her burial site.

Before they built the reactor which is currently in the sub, they made a land based prototype which went active in 2006 and ran it continuously for 3 years to test it. The current one must be a near clone of that prototype except for any changes they have made to the initial design based on those tests. It went critical more than a year ago and they have been conducting harbor trials with the active reactor for a while. They have played it as safe as they could.

I am more worried about how the submarine itself holds up when they test-fire the missiles from it. India has been building and operating nuclear reactors for a while, although none as small as this one. But the Arihant is the first submarine of any kind we have built. The learning curve will be much steeper there.

[desertswo]

Before they built the reactor which is currently in the sub, they made a land based prototype which went active in 2006 and ran it continuously for 3 years to test it. The current one must be a near clone of that prototype except for any changes they have made to the initial design based on those tests. It went critical more than a year ago and they have been conducting harbor trials with the active reactor for a while. They have played it as safe as they could.

I am more worried about how the submarine itself holds up when they test-fire the missiles from it. India has been building and operating nuclear reactors for a while, although none as small as this one. But the Arihant is the first submarine of any kind we have built. The learning curve will be much steeper there.

That was kind of the point of my less than kind initial comment. Nothing against the Indian people. I think every one of my doctor's, as well as my dentist are from there. They have the technological know how at the design level. My concern would have more to do with the construction level where the ship will only be as good as the lowest common denominator operating a welder on the hull, or targeting piping and valves internal to the boat. Frankly, it's a big, freaking leap to make all in one shot. I don't wish them ill at all, but it kind of scares the hell out of me.

As far as the land based prototype, the US Navy has had several up in Idaho Falls, Idaho. It's where all nuke power officers go to learn before going to sea.

[Firestorm]

My concern would have more to do with the construction level where the ship will only be as good as the lowest common denominator operating a welder on the hull, or targeting piping and valves internal to the boat. Frankly, it's a big, freaking leap to make all in one shot. I don't wish them ill at all, but it kind of scares the hell out of me.

I should have clarified what I meant. The Arihant is the first self-designed sub to be built in India. There were a couple of German U-209's manufactured in India in the 80's and the same shipyard is currently building French Scorpenes but haven't completed the first one yet. Warships of all sizes from corvettes to destroyers have been designed and built by Government owned shipyards for quite some time. So they weren't starting completely from scratch.

But the weird thing is, the Arihant's hull seems to have been completely built by the private firm Larsen & Toubro, with control systems, turbines,etc supplied by other private firms. Larsen & Toubro has commercial shipbuilding experience of course, but very little in the defense sector to my knowledge. An unusual decision, especially for the Indian govt.

[lemontree]

Glug . . . glug

Sir, I must protest, the comment was in poor taste, especially from a naval professional like you.
It is reported that lyrics for "The Star-Spangled Banner" were written on board the HMS Minden, that was built buy the Wadia shipbuilders in Bombay Docks in 1810.

Another famous ship from the Bombay Docks was the HMS Cornwallis, that had a very illustrious history and was broken up in 1957, some 144 years after its launch.

We do not copy paste Soviet designs, and our scientists are not graduates from Russian universities.

[desertswo]

Sir, I must protest, the comment was in poor taste, especially from a naval professional like you.
It is reported that lyrics for "The Star-Spangled Banner" were written on board the HMS Minden, that was built buy the Wadia shipbuilders in Bombay Docks in 1810.

Another famous ship from the Bombay Docks was the HMS Cornwallis, that had a very illustrious history and was broken up in 1957, some 144 years after its launch.

We do not copy paste Soviet designs, and our scientists are not graduates from Russian universities.

First of all, I was being facetious so let's just back off the turns a bit, OK?

Secondly, as a naval professional, I would suggest that 19th Century ships that moved under sail are hardly examples of shipyard proficiency to hold up when one is talking about building a very complex piece of machinery wherein the margins of error are literally nil, which will in fact cause the catastrophic loss of all hands should those margins be exceeded. I really don't care where people went to school vis-a-vis design. I know you all know how to design something like this, but again, it's the actual construction that concerns me, and while I'm sure the good people of those shipyards are competent indeed, there is still a learning curve that in the case of the US Navy is 114 years and counting in submarine construction, and we've had our share of catastrophic failures, non-combat related, that resulted in the loss of all hands. USS Thresher being a very prominent one in my living memory.

I see the literal "great leap forward" past those lessons often written in blood as if they weren't there as smacking a bit of hubris. I hope she does well, and she and her crews live long and happy lives, I really do, but forgive me if I have a healthy dose of concern for the lives of the men who will go to sea in Arihant. Someone has to, even if you don't.

[S R]

INS Arihant traveling through Vizag harbour

[SteveDaPirate]

India is planning to lease another Akula II from Russia to help with training in the operation of nuclear subs.

Link

[Genosaurer]

Interesting. I'd really like to see how their propulsion plant is laid out, especially on the 'clean pipe' (primary) side. I always enjoy seeing how different minds tackle the same problem.

As far as the land based prototype, the US Navy has had several up in Idaho Falls, Idaho. It's where all nuke power officers go to learn before going to sea.

Although NPTU Idaho has been closed for a few decades now, there are currently facilities in Charleston SC and Ballston Spa NY that serve the same function of training all Nuclear ratings and officers on an operating land-based reactor before sending them to the fleet. (I qualified on the MARF prototype at NPTU Ballston Spa.)

[Dk__]

[lemontree]

First of all, I was being facetious so let's just back off the turns a bit, OK?

Secondly, as a naval professional, I would suggest that 19th Century ships that moved under sail are hardly examples of shipyard proficiency to hold up when one is talking about building a very complex piece of machinery wherein the margins of error are literally nil, which will in fact cause the catastrophic loss of all hands should those margins be exceeded. I really don't care where people went to school vis-a-vis design. I know you all know how to design something like this, but again, it's the actual construction that concerns me, and while I'm sure the good people of those shipyards are competent indeed, there is still a learning curve that in the case of the US Navy is 114 years and counting in submarine construction, and we've had our share of catastrophic failures, non-combat related, that resulted in the loss of all hands. USS Thresher being a very prominent one in my living memory.

Sir, we have to learn it some way or the other. This is strategic technology that no nation will give us.
My reference to the HMS Minden was to indicate that we do happen to have a maritime history, which unfortunately suffered during the colonial era.

Someone has to, even if you don't.

"Glug...glug" is an expression of concern sir?

[desertswo]

Sir, we have to learn it some way or the other. This is strategic technology that no nation will give us.
My reference to the HMS Minden was to indicate that we do happen to have a maritime history, which unfortunately suffered during the colonial era.


"Glug...glug" is an expression of concern sir?

Do I have to define the word "facetious" for you as well? Come on, you are a big boy, or at least your country wants to act like one. One of the things about entering that stage is that people are going to take shots at you, both literally and figuratively. Get over it and test your submarine and pray, to whatever Supreme Beings you personally embrace, that the unthinkable does not happen. Unfortunately, I was paid to think about the unthinkable. It's a hard habit to break.

[desertswo]

Interesting. I'd really like to see how their propulsion plant is laid out, especially on the 'clean pipe' (primary) side. I always enjoy seeing how different minds tackle the same problem.



Although NPTU Idaho has been closed for a few decades now, there are currently facilities in Charleston SC and Ballston Spa NY that serve the same function of training all Nuclear ratings and officers on an operating land-based reactor before sending them to the fleet. (I qualified on the MARF prototype at NPTU Ballston Spa.)

Show you how long I've been out of that loop. I frankly didn't remember that, and should have because when I was the Director of Engineering and Damage Control Training at Surface Warfare Officers School, I inherited the Senior Officers Ships Material Readiness Course which had been taught in Idaho Falls by the nukes. In fact, I inherited a bunch of surely surface nukes who didn't like having to have pulled up stakes and move during their tour. Not my fault. Bunch of a-holes frankly.

[tbm3fan]

"Glug...glug" is an expression of concern sir?

On a lighter note I do know that glug...glug is the sound beer makes going down my throat at Oktoberfest...:tankie: