Ireland: Defence and its problems

[Recon_sgt]

Ok lads Here is something I want your opinion, input and knowladge on.
Ireland my dear little teddy bear while being a great place has some rather distinct problems, specifically with defence.
Now while i am pleased to hear that yet more of those wonderfull Mowag's have been ordered this doesnt nearly solve our woes. I'l put it in perspective.
cons
1: No air force or even air corps worth mentioning
2: Naval service is underequiped (no ssn's, no ships bigger than frigates)
3: army has no MBT's, Limited air defence,

Pros
1: Army have the best radio encryption system available (go SYNCGAR)
2: All personel are highly trained and usually highly motivated.

So as you can see we have some mighty big problems here.
The reason is an excessivley scaby gov. To give an example the government bought itself a new jet recently with money they "saved" from the defence budget.
Every time the air corps try to buy any half decent jet aircraft the gov knocks it on the head and it took 30 years to get some decent ships for the navy.
My question is simple:
What will we do to sort this out, what can we do.

[indianguy4u]

Have u forgotten about Irish Americans & their political clout.

[dave angel]

this is going to come out a little harsh, but bear with me.

Ireland has no military because it doesn't want one. having no military means spending money on more useful (for internal political consumption) things - like roads and education. having no military means not having to make difficult political decisions about where that military goes and what it does when it gets there. having a constitutional tie to neutrality and the constitutional 'triple-lock' over the deployment of forces means every government has a get out clause both of difficult decisions and unpleasent spending requirements.

having no military is also an excellent excuse for not changing the constitution wrt neutrality and the deployment of forces - the argument being that 'whats the point given that we've no military to speak of?' also translates as 'why spend money on the military when we have the constitution barring its effective use?'. a beautifully crafted circular argument if ever there was one.

Ireland - IMHO - rather enjoys its 'poor man of Europe' legend, it means subsidies on a vast scale and it can get on with its more comfortable internal political squabbles without having to face the decisions and costs of being a first world power.

in short, Irelands political class - with the conivence of its voting public - have made Ireland a sponging leech on the back of those prepared to spend blood and treasure for Europes interests.

a good indication of the public's attitude would be to find out how many political candidates were asked about foriegn affairs and the irish military during the last election as they canvassed support door-to-door.

harsh certainly, but i would suggest it was fair.

[Recon_sgt]

Oh oh ooooooooooooo

Look now you've done it you made me cry .

Ireland - IMHO - rather enjoys its 'poor man of Europe' legend, it means subsidies on a vast scale and it can get on with its more comfortable internal political squabbles without having to face the decisions and costs of being a first world power.

Some of you may be thinking "you haeartless b******" or any manner of nasty little insults, but spare the man your wrath (if there is any) for he alas is absolutely right. Ireland is one of the richest countries on the planet and yet does not have a military, living standard or stability to match. Oh by the way I aint complainin about livin standards but they dont match the excessive costs.
To all you Europeans who care to know P.M. me with any questions you have on the subsidies issue raised here as to explain it all here would take a good 10 pages of the boards space to do.
now none can deny our rather small ground force is of the highest quality and as light infantry among the worlds best but as already mentioned by me, no air force and little of an N.S. to notice.

in short, Irelands political class - with the conivence of its voting public - have made Ireland a sponging leech on the back of those prepared to spend blood and treasure for Europes interests.

This while very short is very true people the Irish Gove headed up by that as* licking C*** Bertie is ripping you all off blind and givin most of the countries money to themselves .
I'll come back with more later, thank you dave for that breath of fresh air.

P.S. mods if this belongs in another area please move it an tell me where its gone to thanks. ;)

[Officer of Engineers]

This reads all too familiar with the Canadian Forces sitting besides the mighty US DoD. In actual fact, there is very little the Irish could do to raise their image. You could double your budget (and that is a committement and a half) without any noticeable appreciation from your more powerful neighbours.

However, the question is is what the Irish doing good enough? Are you doing enough to be kept inviting to the table? For such a thing to occur, two things about any committement must happen. It must be visible and it must be viable.

I have very little doubt that the Irish soldier is a very viable force but is he visible enough? Are the big boys keep coming to you to ask for your help? And are you saying yes enough?

Those questions, Sgt, I don't have the answers to.

[dave angel]

from this side of the Irish sea its not about the quality of the product, its about the willingness to deploy it in the nasty stages of a conflict.

theres been much talk of the EU battlegroups, Irelands defence minister says that Ireland will participate, but only within the triple lock of UN authorisation, parliamentry approval and governmental approval - that obviously takes the 'rapid' out of 'rapid reaction force' and allows Irelands foriegn policy to be vetoed by Russia, China and whichever other despot happens to be sitting on the UNSC at the time.

Ireland has a proud history of UN peacekeeping - one which the Irish govt drags out whenever this 'sponging' question is raised - but that record is one of going to places that had wars years ago and fullfilling the role of a well armed police force monitoring low grade ceasefire violations and acting as election monitors, not going to active war zones and creating peace and stability.

Ireland see's no conventional threat to its existance, and nothing but expensive trouble from developing the military capability required to act as a first world state.

[Recon_sgt]

God damn Willie O'dea an his big sussy tash

having no military means spending money on more useful (for internal political consumption) things - like roads and education.

Dave I must dispute this, you are plain wrong here because they dont spend it on those things which you mentioned they spend it on themselves. FACT: Bertie Ahern pays himself more than 3 times what Tony Blair gets. On a geographic basis alone he should only be getting about a sixth or fifth of what Tony gets.

theres been much talk of the EU battlegroups, Irelands defence minister says that Ireland will participate, but only within the triple lock of UN authorisation, parliamentry approval and governmental approval - that obviously takes the 'rapid' out of 'rapid reaction force' and allows Irelands foriegn policy to be vetoed by Russia, China and whichever other despot happens to be sitting on the UNSC at the time.

again you hit the nail on the head. I would love to take away this triple lock and our facade of neutrality. FACT: Ireland is not neutral and never has been. WW1 we were allied to Germany (the rebelious folk of 1916), In WW2 we were feeding intel to the Brits, During the cold war the C.I.A. were allowed operate more or less freely. These are a few small examples of how we are in no way neutral and to suggest we are is a total lie (on the part of our Gov).
Anyone else got anythin cheerfull to add to my and Daves rantings

[dalem]

Anyone else got anythin cheerfull to add to my and Daves rantings

I think chicks with Irish accents are sexy. That's all I know about Ireland. ;)

-dale

[dave angel]

cheer up lad, you've got the Corrs.

i'd even shag the ugly one to get to the other three.

[lemontree]

Ireland - IMHO - rather enjoys its 'poor man of Europe' legend,

I thought that Italy was the "poor man of europe".

[lemontree]

What will we do to sort this out, what can we do.

I do not know what 'you' do...But can comment on what can be done.
- For starts some heavy lift capabilty should be included in the airforce. This is so that you can move to a NATO threater of operation with speed. You don't need the jets as uncle Sam will send you his or the English can send their RAF.

A NATO or US/UK led operation is the only type where you may see action, apart from that you have peace. IMO The only danger of war in Ireland is when the protestants and catholics down an ale too many and get at each other :)

[dave angel]

IMO The only danger of war in Ireland is when the protestants and catholics down an ale too many and get at each other :)

i think theres a real point behind the joke - if it is a joke.

throughout the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland the British army has had between 12,000 and 20,000 regular troops and about 15,000 regular policemen in Northern Ireland. for one operation, 'motorman' in Londonderry in the early seventies the British army deployed 35 full strength infantry battalions in a single brigade area (there are three in Northern Ireland).

the Irish army is about 8,000 strong and has 6 helicopters. the Irish army is totally unable to prevent any widescale trouble should there eventually be a British withdrawl and a united Ireland.

the Irish army has for a long time had the 'northern question' at the heart of its reason for being, yet it is woefully undermanned and equiped for such an eventuallity.

[Recon_sgt]

mmm indeed

dave gimme back my damn shoes .

the Irish army is about 8,000 strong and has 6 helicopters. the Irish army is totally unable to prevent any widescale trouble should there eventually be a British withdrawl and a united Ireland.

Well lets hope there never is a united Ireland. I have no objection to Britain pulling out but I dont want it back at all its a kip. I say make an independent state and watch the fools descend into their bickering as they do every time they get half a chance.

I do not know what 'you' do...But can comment on what can be done.
- For starts some heavy lift capabilty should be included in the airforce. This is so that you can move to a NATO threater of operation with speed. You don't need the jets as uncle Sam will send you his or the English can send their RAF.

While this is true and i cant disagree this is in a way used as an excuse by certain irish "people" for not bothering to equip the air corps properly, you see whenever I mention to some people "you know we need a proper air corps" the usual response is " oh sure the raf will deal with any problems". Now I ask why if were not willin to do it ourseleves (air protection) would the brits even want to bother looking at us.

[lemontree]

the Irish army is about 8,000 strong and has 6 helicopters. the Irish army is totally unable to prevent any widescale trouble should there eventually be a British withdrawl and a united Ireland.

the Irish army has for a long time had the 'northern question' at the heart of its reason for being, yet it is woefully undermanned and equiped for such an eventuallity.

That is just an assumption. The British felt the same way when they left India. People of the land have a way of surprising everyone. Besides, you do not have politicians in Ireland calling for "direct action" and so you may not have a communal blood bath as we had in 1947. Neither is their a call for division on religious lines. The Catholic Protestant divide is due to political reasons and not religious. The protestants are pro British and the catholics are pro Ireland, hence the animosity against the community at not being one in the national Irish struggle. Do correct me if I am wrong.

While this is true and i cant disagree this is in a way used as an excuse by certain irish "people" for not bothering to equip the air corps properly, you see whenever I mention to some people "you know we need a proper air corps" the usual response is " oh sure the raf will deal with any problems". Now I ask why if were not willin to do it ourseleves (air protection) would the brits even want to bother looking at us.

ARW_cpl
You do need an air corp if you don't have one.
What would be its QRAs?
What capabilities are being looked at?
Is it for projecting an increased assistance/influence in NATO operations?
How will the nation benifit by these actions and expenses?..What would be the national intrest?

[BenRoethig]

The Catholic Protestant divide is due to political reasons and not religious. The protestants are pro British and the catholics are pro Ireland, hence the animosity against the community at not being one in the national Irish struggle.

That's because the so called "Orange" Irish are Brits. They are mostly decedents of Scottish and English settlers who were sent their to rule over the catholic Irish mixed in with some collaborators. Of course they don't want to see a united Ireland, they've always been treated as a superior class to the regular Irish. I've said this once and I'll say it again, the British crown has no place on that Island.