Congressman says bomb Mecca if US attacked

[Aryan]

"If mecca is nuked there will be no time for rebuilding, because the rest of the muslim world will be going with it."

Like I said, its impossible to take out the muslim world with nukes alone.

"When WE rebuild it it'll be called Las Meccas, and be an international resort and casino."

lol

"Well one would hope at that point the few that remained would be smart enough to stop their savagery."

I doubt it. There'll be a three week mourning period and then it'll be back to flying magic carpets into buildings. The stupidity of mankind never ceases to amaze.

"But, if not, we'll just have to handle them as the brits handled the IRA. Domestic terror groups are much easier to deal with."

We Brits had a much easier time with the IRA than al-queda. They would call up before they planted bombs anywhere. And at times, it began to become a police state here. I remember after the Manchester bombings, police would check the cars of everyone coming in and out of Manchester. And that was just one bomb, that smashed a few windows.

"Actually, most do."

Most might, but its the few that spoil it for everyone.

"That may be true, but there won't be many left after the silos are emptied, and they'll be much easier to deal with."

I think it would get harder. With the middle east and muslim countries gone, there would be no one to blame, or no obvious targets. Terrorism would survive, it would just evolve to suit its surroundings. Some terrorists will be stupid and stand out, but a small minority will find a fault in a system and survive. Its all about evolution...

"We're talking in the most blatant of extremes here. Our small muslim populations will be walking on eggshells after such an event occured."

Aren't they supposed to be walking on eggshells right now?

"Perhaps we'll just commit them to reservations just as we did to the Indians, or just intern them as we did to Japanese Americans."

What about muslims in other European countries, France, UK, Germany etc?

[Bill]

"Like I said, its impossible to take out the muslim world with nukes alone."

You were wrong the first time you said it too bro.

"I doubt it. There'll be a three week mourning period and then it'll be back to flying magic carpets into buildings. The stupidity of mankind never ceases to amaze."

Then we'll just have to intern the few that remain. We've done it before. Surely muslims don't want to end up like the Native Americans. Agreed?

"We Brits had a much easier time with the IRA than al-queda."

That's funny since i've been debating an RAF officer on another board that thinks Al Q is nothing like the threat the PIRA was. I agree with you, btw. Al Q is a MUCH larger threat.

"Most might, but its the few that spoil it for everyone."

Yep, which is why this is even being discussed at all.

"I think it would get harder. With the middle east and muslim countries gone, there would be no one to blame, or no obvious targets. Terrorism would survive, it would just evolve to suit its surroundings."

It's surroundings would be a radioactive wasteland. No food, no clean water, no civilization.

Basically a radioactive version of the stone age.

"Some terrorists will be stupid and stand out, but a small minority will find a fault in a system and survive. Its all about evolution..."

Yep, a few would survive, but they'd never again have the ability to hit us with WMD, so it would be mission accomplished from our point of view.

"Aren't they supposed to be walking on eggshells right now?"

One would've hoped so, but that's not the case.

"What about muslims in other European countries, France, UK, Germany etc?"

That's up to each individual country.

[Aryan]

Okay...I'm going to hit you with a hypothetical situation, you tell me if you agree its possible.

2007: A bunch of Arabs somehow manage to develop several nuclear weapons and manage to detonate them simultaneous in NYC and other American cities, killing millions. America gets pissed, withdraws all its staff and citizens from every muslim majority country in the world, and nukes them all in one go. The middle east and central asia becomes one big fuel station. At the same time, profiles its entire population to weed out muslims, shoots the bad ones, and puts all the good ones in *** style camps. All male visitors to America must now declare themselves at customs, literally. Anyone found with a circumsized penis gets sent straight back, no questions.

2007: Muslims after the shock and outrage of having 95% of their brethren exterminated along with their holy cities, get pissed off but can't do anything about it. So Islamic clerics support America's action, and promise not to recruit any more terrorists. And found New Mecca in an arab quarter of France. They all hate America, but most feel they can't do anything about it.

2008: A video of a badly sunburnt Osama bin Laden emerges on the internet, calling for the remaining 60 million muslims to attack America, to gain their reward of virgins.

2009: Websites start sprouting out anti-American hatred again, the clerics don't know anything about it. Evidence indicate they originate from west European IPs. The Democrats are in power again, so they don't bother with nuking Europe.

2010: A French biologist converts to islam, and decides that he will make America for their crimes. He alone develops a variant of the smallpox virus that makes it immune to any vaccination progam currently available. He infects himself, and jumps on a plane to America. He happily submits his penis to customs, who after discerning his foreskin is real, wave him on. He goes on to as many high population cities as he can, transmitting it to most people he is in direct contact with. To avoid being picked up by a hospital who might test his blood, he kills himself. The virus infects millions in America, killing 80% of them.

[Bill]

"2007: A bunch of Arabs somehow manage to develop several nuclear weapons and manage to detonate them simultaneous in NYC and other American cities, killing millions. America gets pissed, withdraws all its staff and citizens from every muslim majority country in the world, and nukes them all in one go. The middle east and central asia becomes one big fuel station. At the same time, profiles its entire population to weed out muslims, shoots the bad ones, and puts all the good ones in *** style camps. All male visitors to America must now declare themselves at customs, literally."

All sounds feasible enough so far.

"Anyone found with a circumsized penis gets sent straight back, no questions."

Most americans are circumcized, i doubt that anyone will inspect a penis for circumcision as an indicator you're a muslim.

"2007: Muslims after the shock and outrage of having 95% of their brethren exterminated along with their holy cities, get pissed off but can't do anything about it. So Islamic clerics support America's action, and promise not to recruit any more terrorists. And found New Mecca in an arab quarter of France. They all hate America, but most feel they can't do anything about it."

I doubt there will be any organization left at all in the muslim sphere, but there will no doubt be some remaining in western countries.

"2008: A video of a badly sunburnt Osama bin Laden emerges on the internet, calling for the remaining 60 million muslims to attack America, to gain their reward of virgins."

Wouldn't surprise me. However, with no form of modern communications in the Muslim sphere, it's doubtful much of his target audience will hear the call.

"2009: Websites start sprouting out anti-American hatred again, the clerics don't know anything about it. Evidence indicate they originate from west European IPs. The Democrats are in power again, so they don't bother with nuking Europe."

Police issue at that point.

"2010: A French biologist converts to islam, and decides that he will make America (pay) for their crimes. He alone develops a variant of the smallpox virus that makes it immune to any vaccination progam currently available."

Well that's a huge hypothetical, but i'll play along.

"He infects himself, and jumps on a plane to America. He happily submits his penis to customs, who after discerning his foreskin is real, wave him on. He goes on to as many high population cities as he can, transmitting it to most people he is in direct contact with. To avoid being picked up by a hospital who might test his blood, he kills himself. The virus infects millions in America, killing 80% of them."

That could already happen now, so really, what's the difference?

The remaining 20% of Americans will just nuke france next.

This is a terribly evil spiral yes?

Hence the importance of getting the message across to the muslim 'street' just how high the stakes really are.

They MUST understand that the ONLY way this can end is with their conforming to the world they live in. They cannot win, they can only force us ALL to lose.

[Samudra]

There , i now get the mindset Sniper is in ! ;)
Dont leave them alive ! We are dead - so should they be.
Reasonable.

[Bill]

That's the entire point of deterrance.

If the enemy doesn't believe you'll use your nukes, then they're not a deterrent, and really just a waste of money.

I have no dobut whatsoever that if painted into a corner President Bush will use them.

[Aryan]

"Most americans are circumcized, i doubt that anyone will inspect a penis for circumcision as an indicator you're a muslim."

I didn't know that, I guess you learn something new everyday

"I doubt there will be any organization left at all in the muslim sphere, but there will no doubt be some remaining in western countries."

Lets assume there won't be a muslim sphere, except in the minority muslims around the world.

"Well that's a huge hypothetical, but i'll play along."

One thing that theoretical physics teaches you is that if it can happen it will. 100 million to one are unlikely odds, but if you've got 100 million lottery tickets the odds look more favourable.

"That could already happen now, so really, what's the difference?"

Exactly....what is the difference? Nuking away one third of the world doesn't make any difference, there's always going to be some loopholes, some complacency something a terrorist could exploit. Look at Israel. And there's never a shortage of people stupid enough to do something without thinking of the consequences.

"The remaining 20% of Americans will just nuke france next."

lol, keep that up and pretty soon you'll run out of countries to nuke.

"This is a terribly evil spiral yes?"

Exactly!

"They MUST understand that the ONLY way this can end is with their conforming to the world they live in. They cannot win, they can only force us ALL to lose."

Thats it I guess...the only way to stop terrorism is to finish off the world.

[Bill]

"Exactly....what is the difference? Nuking away one third of the world doesn't make any difference, there's always going to be some loopholes, some complacency something a terrorist could exploit."

It's all a matter of averages. If there are 1.5 million muslims vs 1.5 billion, obviously the former figure states clearly that attacks will be greatly decreased.

"Look at Israel. And there's never a shortage of people stupid enough to do something without thinking of the consequences."

The solution to that is to remove people from the equation.

"lol, keep that up and pretty soon you'll run out of countries to nuke."

Yep, a vicious cycle, to say the least.

"This is a terribly evil spiral yes?"

"Thats it I guess...the only way to stop terrorism is to finish off the world."

Not all of it, only the parts that contain muslims.

I can paint a different scenario if you like:

London, Paris, Moscow, and NY are all nuked in one attack.

NATO invokes article 15, allies with Russia, and a full scale nuclear attack is initiated on the muslim sphere. All NATO countries and Russia immediately intern and or expel all known muslims from their soil.

Islam is banned in all NATO countries and Russia.

NATO wins, Islam dissapears into the history books.

It can happen. Don't kid yourself.

[Leader]

Well good thing I brought my lawnmower! You think after a nuclear bomb detonates within the US we're just going to close the borders, outlaw Islam deport and imprison all suspicious citizens and screen all those who wish to enter the US and then everything is just going to be rosy and our problems are gonna be solved?

I said kill everyone that looks like a Muslims in the country, but that isn't really relevant. It would solve our problem temporarily, but you have a point if we followed that path we'd have to kill the rest of the Muslims in the world too and were back were we started.

That's not rational buddy....

It's completely immoral too.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to put words in your mouth but what you ultimately saying is we can't ever take the fight to the enemy because we don't know 'who the enemy is'.

We do know who the enemy is. And he isn't innocent women and children.

Let's do the moral thing and refrain by not killing innocent civilians even though our innocent cilivations are being killed.

If by refrain from killing innocent civilians you mean not targeting them for murder, then yes we shouldn't do that.

Let's allow ourselves to be stamped out by these 'unknown' enemies of ours. Gimme a break...

What?

There comes a point where morality goes out the window

No there doesn't.

and your fighting for survival.

How many innocent people deserve to die so that you can survive?

Call me a maniac. Call me a murderous SOB. Call me whatever you want but when it comes to survival. I'm choosing 'us'. And I hope you know who 'us' is.

That's a false choose. It isn't us or every Muslim. It's us or every terrorist.

[Leader]

"Who is "they"? Muslims? That's a little paranoid. "

Oh really?

"In September 2002 al-Qa'ida spokesman Suleiman Abu Gheith said: "We have the right to kill four million Americans - two million of them children - and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands. It is our right to fight them with chemical and biological weapons."

Paranoid eh?

I think not.

The al-Qaida spokesman speaks for all Muslims? Prove it.

[Aryan]

"It's all a matter of averages. If there are 1.5 million muslims vs 1.5 billion, obviously the former figure states clearly that attacks will be greatly decreased."

I can paint a different scenario if you like:

London, Paris, Moscow, and NY are all nuked in one attack.

NATO invokes article 15, allies with Russia, and a full scale nuclear attack is initiated on the muslim sphere. All NATO countries and Russia immediately intern and or expel all known muslims from their soil.

Islam is banned in all NATO countries and Russia.

NATO wins, Islam dissapears into the history books.

Even if they were all nuked, I doubt there would be the resolve to remove ALL muslims from the world. Russians don't really hate muslims ouside their own separatists, and the same goes for China. I can't imagine a British or French politician even mentioning nuking mecca, let alone every muslim in the world.

Heck...a lot of their support comes from the middle eastern countries you'll be nuking. If America decided to invade each and everyone one of these countries then maybe.

It can happen. Don't kid yourself.

It can happen, but it is no way near as simple as nuking all muslim countries, which in itself is a very very unlikely scenario. America isn't spending billions on Iraq and Afghanistan just so it can nuke them out in a few years time.

The only real option for America is to take any terrorist attack on the chin, bomb the countries involved, and just get on with life.

[dalem]

I am demanding that the average Muslim do more to excise the true problem folks from their midst, but I can't imagine that using a WMD on a civilian population would be an appropriate response in the cases outlined above.

Would 5 U.S. cities getting dirty nuked or gas clouded enrage me? Of course.

Would I want to kill those responsioble? Of course.

Would I want to kill those responsible for supporting those responsible? Of course.

So if I had a nation to aim for, then sure, loft the B-2s, send the launch codes, and get the PTSD seminars ready for the pilots and crews.

But without an actual nation to aim for, I just can't see a justification for that kind of response. Not only would I see it as wrong in a moral sense, but what kind of geopolitical or strategic win could we possibly expect in return? I was listening to the Hugh Hewitt show yesterday and he was quite effervesced about this topic, and he brought up a good analogy, I thought - nuking Mecca in response to a Muslim terrorist attack on the U.S. would be like the Allies bombing neutral Spain in WWII merely because there were fascists there.

Anyway, I'm no shrinking violet with respect to nuclear weapons - I advocated using a small one on Afghanistan right after 9/11 - but "nuking Mecca"... I just can't see it.

-dale

[Bill]

"How many innocent people deserve to die so that you can survive?"

It's not a matter of me, it's a matter of my countrymen.

You already know my answer.

"That's a false choose. It isn't us or every Muslim. It's us or every terrorist."

Identify every terrorist, and we'll gladly go about things in a far more surgical fashion.

I'll be waiting for your list...

[Bill]

"The al-Qaida spokesman speaks for all Muslims? Prove it."

He thinks he does. In the end, that's all that matters.

[Leader]

"How many innocent people deserve to die so that you can survive?"

It's not a matter of me, it's a matter of my countrymen.

You already know my answer.

And I already respond to it.

"That's a false choose. It isn't us or every Muslim. It's us or every terrorist."

Identify every terrorist, and we'll gladly go about things in a far more surgical fashion.

I'll be waiting for your list...

How about identify as many non terrorists as we can and not kill them?