Originally posted by montgomery
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This is one of many sites that present contrary evidence on Assad's use of CW's.
https://www.newsweek.com/now-mattis-...-people-801542
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Originally posted by montgomery View PostI disagree. There is at least as much contrary evidence being found that there was no use of chemical weapons at the site of the US bombing.
As for the pesticide factory. Yes, you will find chem traces no matter who says what.
As for proof, could we 100% verify that Assad did use chems? No but this is not a court of law. It is the best decision possible based on the best intel available. The intel was we have over 100 bodies with zero visible trauma and pale white skin and Syrian helicopters delivering cannister munitions with non-lethal explosive force. The delivery took days which is consistent with required chemical weapons operations and the resulting effect.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostYes, CW's can be termed as the poor man's nukes or WMD's which is a more popular term. In my opinion they are neither and haven't been used to any great effect in modern warfare. Iraq's use of CW's being a possible exception, which has been hotly debated by Stephen Pelletiere. My main point being on your suggestion being that it's essential in any demonization of the enemy to place some significant weapon in his hands. Iraq was the exampe of that effort, which was later proven to be false.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostI would agree. But there is every reason to believe that Assad would be very pleased to have the conditions imposed on him, and have every reason to comply and recieve the US blessing on the deal being completed. The use of chem/bio weapons is firmly condemned by all countries, even though there is always the possibility of the condemnation bein only words to that effect. And of course the ability to avoid the condemnation far outweighs the value of using chem/bio weapons in any way that can be proven beyond any doubt.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostAssad would have been walking into an obvious trap if he resorted to the use of chem/bio weapons. They are as you suggest, the poor man's weapon and are much more likely to be used by terrorist/freedom fighter entities, as opposed to being used by any state.
Reports of chem use is still continuing. Trump's lesson to Assad is not do not use chems. It's don't get obvious.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostThank you for your comments. But I'm more interested in your views on whether Obama knew that his red line speech would be so devastating for his country's future plans in the ME. or he unwittingly and stupidly walked into the trap that was being set by Putin/Assad?
However, when the Brits backed out from joining the strike and the lack of Congressional Support is when he cowarded out. If it was the right moral decision with popular support, why is it the wrong moral decision without popular support. Morality is not popularity. I don't know anything about a Putin/Assad trap. Frankly, I believe Putin saw an oppertunity and seized it.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThere were four targets. Which one are you talking about? The targets on the base were weapons delivery and has been identified as chemical weapons delivery. The chems may be removed but the special facilities needed to house and to deliver them were destroy. Assad may still have the chems but his abilities to deliver were serverely compromised.
As for the pesticide factory. Yes, you will find chem traces no matter who says what.
As for proof, could we 100% verify that Assad did use chems? No but this is not a court of law. It is the best decision possible based on the best intel available. The intel was we have over 100 bodies with zero visible trauma and pale white skin and Syrian helicopters delivering cannister munitions with non-lethal explosive force. The delivery took days which is consistent with required chemical weapons operations and the resulting effect.
Have no idea of what you're trying to say but let's be clear. It was Saddam who convinced us he had large stockpiles of chems readied to be used. He even issued weapons released orders to his generals. We only learn after the war that his generals had no clue what he was talking about. Do not place blame when we chosed to believe the man's words that he had chems.
Are we talking about same Assad here? The man who had no qualms about allying with ISIS?
You're looking at this as a Canadian and not as a Syrian. Saddam's chems scared the Iranians shittless into stopping the Iran-Iraq War. The same is true in the areas that Assad chemed. His enemies are running away.
Reports of chem use is still continuing. Trump's lesson to Assad is not do not use chems. It's don't get obvious.
Obama was a moral coward. I have absolutely zero problems with his red line. He decided that Assad's usage of chems was intolerable. I would have questioned is it our place but he's the Head Hancho. He wanted and got handed the tough job. Those are the tough decisions that come with the job. He thought the red line was the right decision and I can understand his decision.
However, when the Brits backed out from joining the strike and the lack of Congressional Support is when he cowarded out. If it was the right moral decision with popular support, why is it the wrong moral decision without popular support. Morality is not popularity. I don't know anything about a Putin/Assad trap. Frankly, I believe Putin saw an oppertunity and seized it.
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That was considered and evaluated to be unlikely. Again, best decision possible based on the best intel available.
The Battle Area was judged too big for the Syrian rebels to cover. Their meagar facilities could not possibly hope to produce that much chems to cover this area. For the number of bodies involved and their production capacity, the victims would have been gathered up and put into a single room to be gassed. The disappearance of so many families from an area would have been noticed as they would have to be put onto trucks. Those same trucks would have to bring the bodies back.
This would have been noticed by our satellites.
To give you context, this chemical attack lasted 5-6 days. That is how long it took to deliver the quantity needed to produce such casualties in such an area. The intel of Syrian helicopters delivering non-lethal explosive canisters matches this timeline.
Could the rebels have done it? Yeah, they could but that doesn't explain Syrian helicopters and non-lethal cannisters. Why do you risk such expensive assets if you're not there to kill the enemy? The answer was of course, they were there to kill the enemy.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Apr 19,, 21:11.Chimo
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First off, on my question on Syria's chem weapons being destroyed, I'm of the opinion it was accepted as being done.
https://www.france24.com/en/20180414...a-france-idlib
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThere were four targets. Which one are you talking about? The targets on the base were weapons delivery and has been identified as chemical weapons delivery. The chems may be removed but the special facilities needed to house and to deliver them were destroy. Assad may still have the chems but his abilities to deliver were serverely compromised.
As for the pesticide factory. Yes, you will find chem traces no matter who says what.
As for proof, could we 100% verify that Assad did use chems? No but this is not a court of law. It is the best decision possible based on the best intel available. The intel was we have over 100 bodies with zero visible trauma and pale white skin and Syrian helicopters delivering cannister munitions with non-lethal explosive force. The delivery took days which is consistent with required chemical weapons operations and the resulting effect.
Have no idea of what you're trying to say but let's be clear. It was Saddam who convinced us he had large stockpiles of chems readied to be used. He even issued weapons released orders to his generals. We only learn after the war that his generals had no clue what he was talking about. Do not place blame when we chosed to believe the man's words that he had chems.
Are we talking about same Assad here? The man who had no qualms about allying with ISIS?
You're looking at this as a Canadian and not as a Syrian. Saddam's chems scared the Iranians shittless into stopping the Iran-Iraq War. The same is true in the areas that Assad chemed. His enemies are running away.
Reports of chem use is still continuing. Trump's lesson to Assad is not do not use chems. It's don't get obvious.
Obama was a moral coward. I have absolutely zero problems with his red line. He decided that Assad's usage of chems was intolerable. I would have questioned is it our place but he's the Head Hancho. He wanted and got handed the tough job. Those are the tough decisions that come with the job. He thought the red line was the right decision and I can understand his decision.
However, when the Brits backed out from joining the strike and the lack of Congressional Support is when he cowarded out. If it was the right moral decision with popular support, why is it the wrong moral decision without popular support. Morality is not popularity. I don't know anything about a Putin/Assad trap. Frankly, I believe Putin saw an oppertunity and seized it.[/QUOTE]
I'm totally convinced that Putin saw an opportunity and pounced upon it. But that speaks nothing to my allegations on Obama presenting his 'red line' speech specifically meaning for Assad and Putin to gleefully accept Obama's demands. And then of course the huge gravity of the outcome in which Russia was enabled and justified to enter Syria and set up his tents permanently.
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostThat was considered and evaluated to be unlikely. Again, best decision possible based on the best intel available.
The Battle Area was judged too big for the Syrian rebels to cover. Their meagar facilities could not possibly hope to produce that much chems to cover this area. For the number of bodies involved and their production capacity, the victims would have been gathered up and put into a single room to be gassed. The disappearance of so many families from an area would have been noticed as they would have to be put onto trucks. Those same trucks would have to bring the bodies back.
This would have been noticed by our satellites.
To give you context, this chemical attack lasted 5-6 days. That is how long it took to deliver the quantity needed to produce such casualties in such an area. The intel of Syrian helicopters delivering non-lethal explosive canisters matches this timeline.
Could the rebels have done it? Yeah, they could but that doesn't explain Syrian helicopters and non-lethal cannisters. Why do you risk such expensive assets if you're not there to kill the enemy? The answer was of course, they were there to kill the enemy.
the deal that was arranged to eliminate Assad's chem/bio weapons would have been hugely positive in his best interests. The WMD justification that was used for the US/Nato phony war against Iraq was immediately eliminated for Syria. And thusly, Syria's future was changed and it's very likely that the Russia presense is forever.
Assad used barrel bombs against his own people. Oy vey the humanity!!
What the hell is a barrel bomb? An oil barrel full of scrap steel and dynamite?Last edited by montgomery; 03 Apr 19,, 02:02.
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And here I thought you would get behind some real facts and now you spout out the old propaganda.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostFirst off, on my question on Syria's chem weapons being destroyed, I'm of the opinion it was accepted as being done.
https://www.france24.com/en/20180414...a-france-idlib
Originally posted by montgomery View PostWe can talk about any allegation you choose.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostSaying something is factually true does not make it so. Producing evidence can strengthen your case but then you'll have my evidence to the contrary to deal with. In this case where you expect me to take the US/Nato word for it, I don't feel compelled to say anything more than it's not true. This is something we can both pursue further with evidence if you think there's some value in doing that.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostAt best it's the opinion of the US/Nato.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostAnd this is not the level of debate to which I am accustomed.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostThe US/Nato has no more legal or moral right to attack on the basis of what Saddam 'said' than another nation would have a right to attack the US on the basis of the US possessing the largest chem/bio stockpile of weapons in the entire world.
And yes, the US DID HAVE THAT LEGAL RIGHT. It's called the Terms of Surrender signed by Iraq after the Kuwait War. Saddam's words violated those terms which automatically return Iraq to a state of war.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostThis last ditch effort to lay blame on Iraq is in my opinion the equvalent to suggesting the the people of Iraq deliberately went out and stood under US/Nato bombs.
Originally posted by montgomery View PostIndeed! Former US allies morphed into a different identity from the terrorisst who were America's friends when the S.U. attempted to own Afghanistan. The US/Nato fight in Syria is not concentrated on ISIS/ISIL, it is concentrated on Assad.
Know what? The rest is bullshit. None of it matches the facts on the ground and the intel picture that was presented. You have absolutely no clue on how we read facts. Yes, a photo of a helo tells us a million things you can't see including munitions and range and the units involved.
Putin is in Moscow. I think he goes barefeet when he does Judo. You can kiss his feet then.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostYeah? How's the Golan Heights working out?
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Originally posted by m a x View PostQuote: „the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect“ -- https://undocs.org/S/RES/497(1981) . Adopted unanimously. You can print it on your toilet paper, but this is not soft law. For all practical reasons it is meant to guarantee peace and security. I know there are people who oppose
Toilet Paper.
Even UNSCR 1441, the one the US used to invade Iraq. All it really said was Iraq to comply or else. The US used that or else as legal justification after failing to get a detailed UNSCR.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostAnd here I thought you would get behind some real facts and now you spout out the old propaganda.
The mission objectives were achieved. Eliminating Assad's chemical manufacturing was never the mission objective. The targets were destroyed. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I just did. All of them.
It's a pesticide factory. What's in a pesticide factory? Poison.
First off, NATO is not involved and 2nd, it is actionable intel, not an opinion. An opinion is something you write up.
You're in a military dominated forum. We do not go by hearsay.
Again, it is not NATO. Unless you have the correct facts on the ground, your posts are complete nonsense. You're posting things you want them to be instead of what they are.
And yes, the US DID HAVE THAT LEGAL RIGHT. It's called the Terms of Surrender signed by Iraq after the Kuwait War. Saddam's words violated those terms which automatically return Iraq to a state of war.
Again, NOT NATO. As for the people of Iraq. Yes, they did. It's friggin war. What did you expect? The targets are in the cities and cities have people.
Yes, you got that right. We bombed the shit out of a Russian thrust against our lines.
Know what? The rest is bullshit. None of it matches the facts on the ground and the intel picture that was presented. You have absolutely no clue on how we read facts. Yes, a photo of a helo tells us a million things you can't see including munitions and range and the units involved.
Putin is in Moscow. I think he goes barefeet when he does Judo. You can kiss his feet then.
Nothing I suggest to you can be accepted if it differs from that which you have accepted from the source. If you are incapable of finally accepting the sad truth of US illegal and unwarranted aggression against Iraq then you remain in the very small % of people who are stuck in the fringe with denial.
And for that reason I'm not going to waste anymore time on debating your notions of the truth which are set in stone. Present something in detail in a polite way without:
The rest is bullshit.You're posting things you want them to be instead of what they are.Putin is in Moscow. I think he goes barefeet when he does Judo. You can kiss his feet then.
And Obama's hands were on that window, along with Putin's.
That's my version of events for anybody who chooses to challenge it.
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostHere's the thing about UNSCR. All laws written says what happens if you don't obey, ie a penalty. There are NO PENALTIES listed. The UNSC made sure of that. If you want to FORCE the country to comply or even PUNISH the country for not complying, you need another UNSCR and that's when the veto comes in. Yes, there's a UNSCR saying Israel should give up the Golan Heights BUT THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES if she does not.
Toilet Paper.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostEven UNSCR 1441, the one the US used to invade Iraq. All it really said was Iraq to comply or else. The US used that or else as legal justification after failing to get a detailed UNSCR.Last edited by m a x; 04 Apr 19,, 00:55.
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Originally posted by m a x View PostUN Security Council has been established to prevent another world conflict, upon the outcome of WW2. The veto power, by design, made them incapable to block regional conflicts, with one or more permanent members involved. This left the major players field to continue hot war between themselves on various terrains using other populations and infrastructure as either targeted or collateral damage. It is still unregulated area, when law with necessary agreement can not be achieved. The International law that can be achieved by UNSC however differs substantially on principles and subjects from national laws. It regulates sovereign states recognized to know and understand the law in detail by its complexity, with designated rights to take part in creation of the law, or without even an opportunity for representation in due process. Most importantly it is based on principle of pacific settlement of disputes through diplomacy. Whenever necessary and possible the UNSC authorizes use of force. No state or group of states, members and permanent members of UNSC are legally justified to enforce militarily the law against other state without explicit authorization. When the law is adopted in one or more resolutions, and there is no authorization to enforce this law, it is left on time and developments, sticking to the pursue of peace and security, for the law to be enacted by the states involved. Neither time, nor refusal of states to enact the law make it wastepaper. More and more time is given for law to take effect as sustainable solution with priority to avoid escalation of conflict and war
Originally posted by m a x View PostThere was no legal justification for invasion of Iraq and no UNSC resolution provided such. Although the cases are not comparable in terms of land dispute and production of weapons of mass destruction, it is exactly the lack of legal justification that brought the devastating consequences on and beyond the region, with spread of terrorism, continuing instability and countless number of lost lives. Geopolitically at the outset USA have even helped their foes with this violation, cleaning way for Iran's influence, and supplying money for Vladimir Putin to renew Russia's might and strengthen his power with extra-prices of petrol and relevant energy resources
Toilet PaperLast edited by Officer of Engineers; 04 Apr 19,, 01:21.Chimo
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