Schumer's Shutdown

[astralis]

z,

they already had DACA, the sticking points were the wall, chain migration and the Visa Lottery. They wanted a clean DACA so they could filibuster immigration reform, they've lost that now.

eh....not really. all of those were addressed with the Graham-Durbin compromise.

essentially the only thing holding this up now is bargaining over how much the wall gets now.

[GVChamp]

not sure how you got any of that from what happened.

Dems took CHIP off the table and extracted a public promise from McConnell (which is worth nothing, as Collins has found out, but still...). they gave nothing in return past another 3 weeks.

nothing about the wall, there's no end to the visa lottery system, etc, in this round.

and if McConnell squelches or the GOP House can't accept a Senate-brokered compromise, then, well, 8 February it starts up again.

yeah, there's some pissed off immigration activists right now but AFAIK they're not going to do anything that will screw up Dem leverage on the next round of negotations.

the overall contours of the deal haven't changed.

Yeah, I am pretty surprised that leftists on other forums I visit are fuming so bad. Like, how much do you expect to get with a minority in the Senate?

[astralis]

Yeah, I am pretty surprised that leftists on other forums I visit are fuming so bad. Like, how much do you expect to get with a minority in the Senate?

essentially they want a display of commitment and were hoping to foist the GOP on its own petard for the earlier shutdowns. they remember how Obama was willing to give away the farm during the previous Grand Bargain discussions.

of course, the Dems and the GOP place different levels of importance when it comes to the federal workforce. the parties also differ when it comes to the value of compromise vs ideological purity.

in short, Schumer had a bad hand and did not play it very well (now he is trying to take backsies on that wall funding thing, lol). on the other hand, McConnell is fettered by House GOP and by the President (!) so he doesn't have a particularly strong hand either. that's why the initial offer was actually pretty good for the Dems.

[antimony]

Chip wasn't a concession it was already there. He conceded he will fund the wall which is an utter catipulation.



He shut the government down and got nothing but what was already on offer and per you is now conceding to funding the wall. Thats defeat.

What exactly is stopping him from taking it back? Trump has gone back on his words many time before

[tbm3fan]

The roller coaster starts again as Schumer has pulled money for the wall off the table. Ok, by me since it should either be funded through the DHS budget or by Mexico as per the Trump promise. Time, for him, to put up or shut up as some have suggested from his party.

In the end it is all on him. His base and the House don't want to give in on DACA. The Senate wants to deal and let the Dreamers stay. Trump probably wants to let the Dreamers stay deep inside himself. However, he has Miller, the House and his base all saying no way. The Senate says yes way. Someone has to be disappointed in this and he has to decide. If yes then tell the House to pass it. If no then deal with the fallout in the Senate. The most likely scenario, for the time being, will probably be waffle as he does excel at that.

[citanon]

The roller coaster starts again as Schumer has pulled money for the wall off the table. Ok, by me since it should either be funded through the DHS budget or by Mexico as per the Trump promise. Time, for him, to put up or shut up as some have suggested from his party.

In the end it is all on him. His base and the House don't want to give in on DACA. The Senate wants to deal and let the Dreamers stay. Trump probably wants to let the Dreamers stay deep inside himself. However, he has Miller, the House and his base all saying no way. The Senate says yes way. Someone has to be disappointed in this and he has to decide. If yes then tell the House to pass it. If no then deal with the fallout in the Senate. The most likely scenario, for the time being, will probably be waffle as he does excel at that.

Actually there's a bigger picture. GOP needs to get rid of sequestration and pass a regular budget. Unfortunately they need the Democrats to go along. Democrats either don't want to compromise or are afraid to. DACA gives GOP leverage and moderate Democrats cover.

Therefore, immigration deal needs to move in sync with budget deal.

[tbm3fan]

Therefore, immigration deal needs to move in sync with budget deal.

House + Senate + Trump + his base + Democrats = ???

[astralis]

Democrats either don't want to compromise or are afraid to.

the Dems have always said that they're happy to eliminate the sequestration if domestic spending matches military spending.

[citanon]

the Dems have always said that they're happy to eliminate the sequestration if domestic spending matches military spending.

Setting aside the illogicality of requiring two entirely different categories of spending to be equal, how is that actually different from sequestration other than just saying, spend away, spend everything?

[zraver]

Simple Wiki search …
“The Huns were a nomadic people who lived in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia between the 4th century AD and the 6th century AD.”

“In the 18th century, the French scholar Joseph de Guignes became the first to propose a link between the Huns and the Xiongnu people, who were northern neighbors of China in the 3rd century BC. [that’s 700-900 years earlier]. Since Guignes’ time, considerable scholarly effort has been devoted to investigating such a connection. However there is no scholarly consensus on a direct connection between the dominant element of the Xiongnu and that of the Huns.”

It goes on to say Hun pressure from the East may have contributed to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but nothing links the Huns and Xiongnu.

Even more to the point, the Xiongnu moving west hundreds of years before the Great Wall was built ... because some idiot said “Let’s build a big, beautiful wall!” ? ... didn't cause the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century.

Don't try to tell me about Chinese history, especially if you can't be bothered to do any real research.

Typical of you to completely ignore the rest of the Xiongnu history in order to create a false timeline.

[zraver]

the Dems have always said that they're happy to eliminate the sequestration if domestic spending matches military spending.

Which of course is BS. National Defense is a constitutional duty, entitlements are not. The Dems hold the military hostage as a tool to create more dependency so they can grow the dependency class that votes for them. Dems wouldn't care if we got invaded if the invaders would vote for them.

[GVChamp]

Yeahhhhhh, I don't think the Founding Fathers would agree that OUR military is a constitutional duty. They'd probably look at most of the people here as potential conspirators with a 21st century Oliver Cromwell.

[zraver]

The roller coaster starts again as Schumer has pulled money for the wall off the table. Ok, by me since it should either be funded through the DHS budget or by Mexico as per the Trump promise. Time, for him, to put up or shut up as some have suggested from his party.

In the end it is all on him. His base and the House don't want to give in on DACA. The Senate wants to deal and let the Dreamers stay. Trump probably wants to let the Dreamers stay deep inside himself. However, he has Miller, the House and his base all saying no way. The Senate says yes way. Someone has to be disappointed in this and he has to decide. If yes then tell the House to pass it. If no then deal with the fallout in the Senate. The most likely scenario, for the time being, will probably be waffle as he does excel at that.

Schumer is trying to uncave too get away from the beating he is taking from the hard left. Won't work, its too late. Sure he can shut the government down again, still wont get DACA and not funding the military and making the troops fight without pay will doom Dem chances to pick up house seats or hold on to senate seats in red states. Shutting the government down to give illegals preference over the troops was and is never a winning play anywhere common sense still exists. The wall will get funded the Graham-Durbin-Flake proposal to end-run around the group of 4 and hoodwink the American public into open borders is dead.

[zraver]

Yeahhhhhh, I don't think the Founding Fathers would agree that OUR military is a constitutional duty. They'd probably look at most of the people here as potential conspirators with a 21st century Oliver Cromwell.

Funny a 2 year budget deal to fund the military is constitutional. They may not like the standing army, which is why they required the army to be subject to 2 year or less budgets (article 1 section 8 clause 12), but they would love the navy which could have any budget Congress so desired (article 1 section 8 clause 13).

[Ironduke]

Why do people keep speaking about a wall?

There's only ever going to be a few miles of additional border fence put up, and some changes to the type of fencing that already exists.

Trump's proposals on the issue of the border wall are a solution to a problem that is mostly imagined.