2018 American Political Scene

[Officer of Engineers]

Different books, different bookshops, and different planets.

Different lives but definetely the same friggin planet. Versus is a veteran of the Yugoslav Wars and all that it means. That was a Civil War when you have Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters because they are a different people, Croats, Serbs, Albanians, Bosnians - take your pick. So yes, he does have that view.

With that aspect, it is extremely surprising that there has not been a 2nd Kosovo War since the ethnic Albanians claim what cannot be denied as Serb territory within Serbia itself.

Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters. That's 3 generations that they remember this stuff and they tell of the First Battle of Kosovo as it were yesterday.

You may not like it but Versus has lived it.

[Officer of Engineers]

This shouldn't be a military operation to begin with. Unless there is evidence the crowd has more serious weaponry than a few stones they picked up they should be handled by law enforcement. If they do become violent there are riot police who have far more appropriate training and equipment to deal with that.

This whole conversation is somewhere between bizarre and insane.

I do agree that Police is the agency that should be handling this as they are not constrained by the UCMJ, the GC, and the Hague. However, border defence is a legitimate military issue and while I can think of several agencies that can do a better job, I do not find the order out of place.

[Oracle]

Lethal force is authorized in defence of self and position, in this case the border. Just because they're unarmed civilians does not relieve you of your responsibility to defend your position.

That being said, it will be a cold day in hell before I order fire on unarmed civilians. I will accept their surrender or I will force their surrender. Rock throwers will be identified and treated as illegal combattants.

You're talking about the Army's POV, why? I was not challenging the proposition of the rock throwing people being shot at by the Army. The Army should only be used when all other means (police, border police etc) are exhausted. This is not the case here. What if a captain refuses to execute such an order from the POTUS? The chain of command breaks down here isn't it? Giving bombastic statements is a forte at which no one can surpass Trump and he is eroding institutions everyday. Igniting unnecessary issues makes me puke. There is no law in the US that can deal with those migrants? Politics is at such a low, people supporting these kind of politics should feel ashamed.

[Bigfella]

To be fair BF, the National Guard that would be deployed should ostensibly have competence in crowd/riot control and would be expected to respond to the crowd as such. Despite some high profile incidents in the past (i.e., My Lai), there's plenty of faith around that American troops will not participate in a civilian turkey shoot.

If the troops there are properly trained & have the right gear then that is fine. I'm not expecting a My Lai, though a Kent State might be a little more apposite. My point is simply that the people best trained for crowd control should be the front line here.

The real disturbing part are the people that so readily accept committing virtual war crimes to "keep the dang immigrants from takin' 'er jerbs."

Can you honestly say you are surprised? It doesn't take much to bring the 'kill 'em all' response out of some people. All that changes is who they think should be exterminated this time. There isn't a lot new here except that you have a President giving a wink & a nod to extreme ideas rather than consistently hosing them down. Of course, that is a truly bad development, as is the preparedness of his supporters to cover for him no matter how extreme he becomes.

Different books, different bookshops, and different planets.

Yep. been that way for a good while.

[Officer of Engineers]

You're talking about the Army's POV, why? I was not challenging the proposition of the rock throwing people being shot at by the Army. The Army should only be used when all other means (police, border police etc) are exhausted. This is not the case here.

Border defence is a legitimate military tasking. Police should used first because they are not constrainted by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice and by the Geneva Conventions but this also a legitimate military tasking.

What if a captain refuses to execute such an order from the POTUS? The chain of command breaks down here isn't it?

Depending on the situation and reading through the AARs, the CoC may decide to protect that Captain. However, if that Captain still fails to contain the breach, deciding to not shoot the civilians would not be amongst the charges.

[Oracle]

Sir, you've been a military man, you know ROE better. I'm a civilian and I don't know anything more than what constitutes morally right or wrong. Assuming you're a Captain and have been tasked to stop the flow of migrants at the border even if that means shooting at those unarmed people, what would you do? You'd shoot, or use non-lethal means for crowd management such as tear-gas & water cannons.

Giving bombastic statements is a forte at which no one can surpass Trump and he is eroding institutions everyday. Igniting unnecessary issues makes me puke. There is no law in the US that can deal with those migrants? Politics is at such a low, people supporting these kind of politics should feel ashamed.

Colonel, the above para was not meant or directed at you. It was my outburst at incidents as I see it. I know you understood, but I had to clear it.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, you've been a military man, you know ROE better. I'm a civilian and I don't know anything more than what constitutes morally right or wrong. Assuming you're a Captain and have been tasked to stop the flow of migrants at the border even if that means shooting at those unarmed people, what would you do? You'd shoot, or use non-lethal means for crowd management such as tear-gas & water cannons.

UNPROFOR didn't have water cannons nor tear gas. BTW, tear gas is a violation of the CWC. That is why the military cannot use it but the police can.

But you're overthinking too much here. The military would not be tasked to stop the flow of migrants. They would be tasked to contain the breaches to the border. Forget about sealing the borders or completely stopping the migrants. With a border that big, you're bound to have leakage. That means detecting and containing breaches to an AO. Once you detect a breach, you surround it and contain it, ie detain the people. Call the cops and let them do their jobs for processing.

If the people want to run back home to back to the other side of the border, we ain't stopping them.

[Red Team]

Different lives but definetely the same friggin planet. Versus is a veteran of the Yugoslav Wars and all that it means. That was a Civil War when you have Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters because they are a different people, Croats, Serbs, Albanians, Bosnians - take your pick. So yes, he does have that view.

With that aspect, it is extremely surprising that there has not been a 2nd Kosovo War since the ethnic Albanians claim what cannot be denied as Serb territory within Serbia itself.

Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters. That's 3 generations that they remember this stuff and they tell of the First Battle of Kosovo as it were yesterday.

You may not like it but Versus has lived it.

Col.

My previous statement wasn't specifically intended for Versus as it was meant to be a critique of fringe Trump supporter rhetoric, but this does add a bit more context to his views. From what limited understanding I have about the Kosovo conflict, it was a clusterf--k of ethnic conflict and politics where the concept of "innocence" was a fantasy. Certainly an experience that would put one's humanity to the test.

[Versus]

You must have some pretty damning evidence that no one, including the US government, has to draw such a conclusion.



So to prevent a hypothetical bloodbath from occurring, we should commit a literal bloodbath? I hate invoking Godwin's law, but this sounds like stuff straight out of Mein kampf.

https://newsroom.mastercard.com/pres...al-challenges/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1531H2

Its not hypothetical it happened and it happens today, but leftists wont report it. I have a friend that is a credible source within NGO's that was active from Lybia to Serbia with migrants. This whole thing is one giant op, its not a spontanious event, its made with a purpose.

For the Nazi argument:

https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Celeb...-Serbia-570873

[Versus]

Different lives but definetely the same friggin planet. Versus is a veteran of the Yugoslav Wars and all that it means. That was a Civil War when you have Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters because they are a different people, Croats, Serbs, Albanians, Bosnians - take your pick. So yes, he does have that view.

With that aspect, it is extremely surprising that there has not been a 2nd Kosovo War since the ethnic Albanians claim what cannot be denied as Serb territory within Serbia itself.

Grandmothers throwing out their granddaughters. That's 3 generations that they remember this stuff and they tell of the First Battle of Kosovo as it were yesterday.

You may not like it but Versus has lived it.

If the current events continue, next year. They are building an Army, the official one, trained by Croats and funded by US and Germany. Also there are a lots of ties with the Turkey, lots of ISIS members and Gülen's supporters. But in the light of the global events, Kosovo, Bosnia and other low intenstiy conflicts are nothing more than a mines, placed by US Communists such as Clintons, to serve in the times of need if their global agenda gets into trouble. I am affraid that as US situation gets more unstable, US communists will activate those mines as a back up plan. Well maybe not mines, more like satchel charges.

[Versus]

I will try to look for that analysis that I did in 2004, when I was in San Francisco or at least try to remember it, if I don't find it.

[Mihais]

If I have to explain to you why shooting at unarmed civilians is fundamentally wrong, then clearly we are on two different pages.

Sing that song in Israel.

Border control since the invention of firearms until a few years ago was done by shooting unarmed(mostly,but not always) civilians trying to illegally cross it and who did not obeyed the orders to get back.

Strangely enough,civilisation did not collapsed but flourished and millions of people did not wandered around too much(as a rule,with its notable exceptions) causing mayhem.

I wonder why should I bother with a visa for US.Is faster and a bit cheaper to fly somewhere in Central America,cross into US,visit whatever I like and get back.

[Versus]

Well, Croats have no problems with usage of firearms.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nine-hurt.html

[Officer of Engineers]

Border control since the invention of firearms until a few years ago was done by shooting unarmed(mostly,but not always) civilians trying to illegally cross it and who did not obeyed the orders to get back.

What border controls? Up until WWI, the only way anyone knows you're a foreigner is that you don't speak the local language. Proof of citizenship was when your neighbours know you. Traders only get stopped when they try to set up shop at the castle gates and have to pay a fee.

Marauding bandits and invading armies were the only times when firearms were issued to deal with foreign incursion issues.

[GVChamp]

To be fair BF, the National Guard that would be deployed should ostensibly have competence in crowd/riot control and would be expected to respond to the crowd as such. Despite some high profile incidents in the past (i.e., My Lai), there's plenty of faith around that American troops will not participate in a civilian turkey shoot. The real disturbing part are the people that so readily accept committing virtual war crimes to "keep the dang immigrants from takin' 'er jerbs."

Different books, different bookshops, and different planets.

The National Guard is sometimes called upon for peacekeeping roles, and the US military has definitely been called in as well. Bush the First sent enough troops to the LA Riots to overthrow a small nation.

The issue of legitimate use of force has no answer, unless you have a direct connection with the Almighty I am unaware of. This isn't My Lai, where the US decided to occupy a foreign nation and prop up a government. This isn't the LA Riots either. I don't think we should be shooting people as a first move, but I'm not weeping over people who tried to violate someone's national sovereignty and immediately picked a fight at the border. It's not an unjustified use of force by the state.

If people were okay with committing war crimes because they took our jobs, they'd be calling for nuclear strikes on Honduras. Which no one is doing.