Is the SU-30MKI the worlds best fighter?

[notorious_eagle]

SU30MKI is not the world's best fighter aircraft, not by a long shot. USAF evaluated the SU30MKI quite extensively when it was brought to Nellis Airbase during the 2008 Red Flag exercises. Its an excellent fighter no doubt but if appropriate counter measures are taken against this jet, its definitely beatable and was proved during the RF2008 exercises. American superiority in the field of avionics and weaponry makes legacy fighters still a very formidable threat, that is why experienced USAF operators of the F15's and F16's were able to out best the MKI's to the point where the Indian pilots refused to go one on one in A2A combat.

[Spider_Pig]

if appropriate counter measures are taken against this jet, its definitely beatable and was proved during the RF2008 exercises. American superiority in the field of avionics and weaponry makes legacy fighters still a very formidable threat, that is why experienced USAF operators of the F15's and F16's were able to out best the MKI's to the point where the Indian pilots refused to go one on one in A2A combat.

Can you provide more incisive on the same please?

[notorious_eagle]

Can you provide more incisive on the same please?

Please watch these lectures by Col Fornof whom is a very experienced operator of the F15.

YouTube - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 1
YouTube - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 2

[Spider_Pig]

Please watch these lectures by Col Fornof whom is a very experienced operator of the F15.

YouTube - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 1
YouTube - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 2

I am surprised you are quoting someone's experience as your first hand information to support your own observation. (This is an old video and much debated about)

I meant... can you explain the technology difference in terms of avionics, maneuverability, radar, jammers etc. ?

Please let's not form opinion here without disusing real capabilities of a machine which takes years of pain to build. Also, please understand that F15 and F16 are great air fighters, no one is denying that.

Now please verify your claim 'USAF operators of the F15's and F16's were able to out best the MKI's to the point where the Indian pilots refused to go one on one in A2A combat.'

[Spider_Pig]

Can't do that.

1. I don't know enough
2. These planes operate within a package under specific doctrines used by different militaries. It's very difficult to analyze just how effective they are.

From my worthless opinion, F-18E is a far more effective fighter, interceptor, and especially attack bomber, than people normally think. It's 40% larger than the original Hornet and really a different aircraft. It just happened to look similar to F-18A.

Gripen is a very light (by today's standards) multi role fighter that has incredible aerodynamics which enable it to supercruise with external stores. It's not Raptor speed, but still very impressive running on just a single F404 engine.

Rafale is...very French.

Typhoon is...very Euro.

Thanks a gunnut... however I would urge other senior members as well to value add, as I have not really been able find conclusive comparative studies on these Flying Beauties.

[Deltacamelately]

SP,

I would recommend that you go through the entire thread. You may also want to go through similar threads on the MKI's capabilities.

[Spider_Pig]

SP,

I would recommend that you go through the entire thread. You may also want to go through similar threads on the MKI's capabilities.

Dear Deltacamelately,

I must admit I have not gone through the entire thread, since I have been jumping some flaming train comments. However, I will again do the same since you have advised. However, I must say I have not find a link or any detailed comparative study between the above mentioned aircrafts. I have Wikipedia all the Aircrafts as well and I have done extensive study on MKI, however a comparative study based on AC capability still deludes me.

regards,
SP

[Officer of Engineers]

I have Wikipedia all the Aircrafts as well and I have done extensive study on MKI, however a comparative study based on AC capability still deludes me.

You're not going to get it. The finer points of these aircrafts remains class protected info and no one here have access to all aircrafts in question.

Your best bet is read Choggy and Jimmy to see how they approach battle. This will tell you why the Indians (and everyone else for that matter) are far behind.

[USSWisconsin]

Dear Deltacamelately,

I must admit I have not gone through the entire thread, since I have been jumping some flaming train comments. However, I will again do the same since you have advised. However, I must say I have not find a link or any detailed comparative study between the above mentioned aircrafts. I have Wikipedia all the Aircrafts as well and I have done extensive study on MKI, however a comparative study based on AC capability still deludes me.

regards,
SP

SP, if you use the advanced search window above the forum list, I found about 5-6 threads on this topic at WAB, some of them contain substantial analysis in the posts.

[Deltacamelately]

Dear Deltacamelately,

I must admit I have not gone through the entire thread, since I have been jumping some flaming train comments. However, I will again do the same since you have advised. However, I must say I have not find a link or any detailed comparative study between the above mentioned aircrafts. I have Wikipedia all the Aircrafts as well and I have done extensive study on MKI, however a comparative study based on AC capability still deludes me.

regards,
SP

As quoted by OoE, you won't find pin-point specs on these birds for obvious reasons.
The other alternative is to narrow down your observations and querries and present it to the Military Professionals and Defence Professionals here, who are from Aviation.
Choggy and Jimmy will surely be of help.

[Spider_Pig]

Thanks OoE, USS and Delta... I will surely keep that in mind.

[notorious_eagle]

I am surprised you are quoting someone's experience as your first hand information to support your own observation. (This is an old video and much debated about)

The opinion is off an experienced Colonel in USAF whom has thousands of flying hours clocked in, his opinion is as real as it gets. I base my observations learning from the professionals whom have served in the Armed Forces because i am not a professional.

I meant... can you explain the technology difference in terms of avionics, maneuverability, radar, jammers etc. ?

Compared to what aircraft? Keep in mind most of the specifications are usually classified thus unavailable to the public. In my opinion its pointless comparing aircrafts 1 on 1. In a real air war the deployment of all aircrafts in a cohesive strategy to balance out ones weaknesses with one's strengths will be the deciding factor. With all these force multipliers that are being bought by air forces around the world, comparing aircrafts one on one is becoming less important.

Now please verify your claim 'USAF operators of the F15's and F16's were able to out best the MKI's to the point where the Indian pilots refused to go one on one in A2A combat.'

It appears that you did not see the video about what the Colonel had to say.

[Spider_Pig]

The opinion is off an experienced Colonel in USAF whom has thousands of flying hours clocked in, his opinion is as real as it gets. I base my observations learning from the professionals whom have served in the Armed Forces because i am not a professional.



Compared to what aircraft? Keep in mind most of the specifications are usually classified thus unavailable to the public. In my opinion its pointless comparing aircrafts 1 on 1. In a real air war the deployment of all aircrafts in a cohesive strategy to balance out ones weaknesses with one's strengths will be the deciding factor. With all these force multipliers that are being bought by air forces around the world, comparing aircrafts one on one is becoming less important.



It appears that you did not see the video about what the Colonel had to say.

Aaargh.. am a bit drunk.. and drunk has no religion... I will say... I quit to you... YOU are god!!! Now please ensure if some Pak National (My best mate is a Pakistani and we eat pork sausages from sayers together and beef steaks @ edwards) everyone who disses about the US in Pakistan... show them this video as well... Will you do that for me please? If I keep my mouth shut? ok?

[Phoenix10]

I'll save you a little time. This is from a post I made on a different thread about the same topic. I have highlighted some of the points relevant to this discussion of the MKI's performance relative to the F-15 and F-16 (radar, datalinks, etc.)

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action | AVIATION WEEK

"...Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft."

"...That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com."

"...He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating."

"...Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

"...U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

"...A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches."

[avon1944]

While I truly hope Col. Terrence Fornof is correct about the F-22A having a sustained rate of turn of 28°/sec., he made several mistakes in his lecture. There were no 1V1 with the Su-30MKIs at Red Flag 2008. There were some 1V1s against some USAF fighters at Mountain Home AFB, Idaho in the week preceding Red Flag. There IAF's MiG-21 Lancers had Soviet designed avionics not Israeli, the Su-MKI had Indian and Israeli avionics. There were also a few other points he was in error on.

In, reading through the RoEs for Cope India 2004, the reason the USAF agreed to the 3:1 ratio of combat aircraft in the air at one time is that, it is a reasonable ratio of what the Indian AF could see in a conflict against the Pakistani Air Force!

I have not really been able find conclusive comparative studies on these Flying Beauties.

The closest to this point would be the pilot reports from Aviation Week & Space Technology Magazine on the MiG-29 (February 26, 1990 issue) and the Su-27 (September 24, 1990 issue). These PRs are on these aircraft back in 1990.
In essence the reports state that while the two latest Soviet fighters were the equal to the USA's legacy fighters in maneuverability and performance. But, in cockpit design, pilot work-load and, avionics... these two Soviet fighters are closer to the F-4 Phantom II!!!!
I scanned the articles and have them in a text files. If you want copies of the articles IM me with your E-mail address and I will send them to you.

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action | AVIATION WEEK

This article is about the video tape on You Tube of Col. Terrence Fornof's speech at an auditorium of senior USAF personnel.
URL;
USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action | AVIATION WEEK
When it first appeared on You Tube, the USAF tried to get it off but, evidently enough people had gotten copies of it and when the USAF would get off the You Tube, someone else would down load it again.

"...U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

I gather the Indian pilots discovered why many western pilots refer to the cobra and other post stall maneuvers as air show maneuvers, only! I guess it can be effective "IF", the guy on your "six" is less than a quarter mile behind you but, at a mile and a half, it is totally useless as a defensive maneuver.
The 'beam maneuver' used before the merge is something that works well against mechanically scanning radars but not, AESA radars. I have no idea as to how effective the beam maneuver works against PESA radars.
I know the Indian AF used this maneuver against the F-15's 'big wall' formation, effectively. In testifying before congress, a USAF general stated that if an MKI fired an AA-12 at the F-15's, then performed the beam maneuver the F-15's would loose radar lock-on, contact and, the MKI could escape the F-15's detection. Then from below the F-15s the MKIs could use their IRST to make a silent attack on the F-15s by firing an AA-11 Archer at the F-15s. Then escaping before the F-15s could counter attack the MKIs.