The Terror of Fake News

[snapper]

No, the question is how these informations popped up. Was it legal or illegal. At least this is what the Westerners thought us so. There is a reason why illegally obtained "evidenece" is no evidence.

Afterwards, if everything was according to the law, they can proceed with the findings. No-brainer actually.

Now we have a situation where you say he did this, she did that, but they are all baseless claims since as far as I am concerned, all this can be made up, since there seems to be no legal procedure followed up. Yes, please do tell me how these technicalities were followed and that Trumpets are all in bed with Moscow.

Ok let me go through legal issues (as far as I understand them) slowly. We know that someone or group associated with Muscovy (Roger Stone was in contact with Guccifer2 apparently) hacked the DNC and Podesta. In July last year the hacked material started turning up in Wikileaks and DCleaks. At that time the FBI, as is surely their duty, start an investigation into this interference in the election. All legal so far right? Authorities doing their duties yes? We still cannot be sure IF a FISA court was called but bearing in mind the investigation is looking at Muscovy it would be logical to get permission to listen in on Muscovite's considered of interest to the investigation. Again nothing illegal if this step was taken, for FISA you have to show "probable cause" and although I myself do not like the idea of secret courts it is the legal process in the US and perfectly legal. Right so if we for one moment presume that a FISA ruling was obtained the FBI, NSA, CIA etc can legally monitor those Muscovites suspected as having something to do with the interference; still all legal and no Obama right? So let us assume hypothetically off go the spooks and the Feds and their Geek pals proceeding to gather any info and evidence they can - asking friends and listening in etc etc... Let us hypothetically presume the Muscovite Ambassador is deemed suitable for attention. Well we know they did ask friends; some Europeans had picked up SIGINT and had HUMINT too - even Ukraine volunteered the Manafort info. All still legal and no Obama right? So in our hypothetical presumption this information is being gathered, Muscovites are being listened in on etc and the Trump (Steele) dossier is out there (it was around for some time before being published). Now imagine what may be the surprise of these legally operating Agencies and Bureaus when all the information that starts coming in is regularly inadvertently getting Trump team people in contact with just those Muscovites they are investigating! So if Agent Joe is monitoring the telephone calls of the Muscovite Ambassador no doubt he will be very surprised when Flynn is regularly calling in! He is not allowed to listen to Flynn - that would break the bounds of what a FISA court could allow - but he does know and reports back that oddly Flynn is calling his target. But since he is permitted to listen to the Muscovite Ambassador what if the Ambassador mentions the subjects he discussed with Flynn in reports to someone else? Fine; that's legal. So this whole body of evidence and contacts comes back - they said subsequent SIGINT had verified parts of the dossier remember? - and it's all very embarrassing so a second investigation is started into "coordination" of the Trump campaign with the Muscovite interference; is that not their duty? Is it illegal? Not at all. Still no Obama involved and all legal. And that is just about where we are today. All this "Obama wiretapped me" BS is pure smokescreen; a President cannot order such a thing which would be illegal anyway and this is why it did not happen as confirmed by all involved. Nothing illegal, no Obama and all doing their duty. Not hard.

For some reason Trump and his people - who have consistently falsely denied any contacts with Moscow - is scared of this to the extent that when Manafort, Roger Stone and Carter Page were all volunteering to testify in an open hearing on Tuesday Nunes unilaterally cancelled it without asking anyone else on his committee. There are rumours that Flynn - against whom there was possibly the strongest case for prosecution - has done a deal with the FBI and may be singing. This may explain why the Tuesday hearing was cancelled if true. Sooner or later one of these idiots will flip; they always do in the end, and then the whole lot blows up and they will turn on each other in an effort to sauve qui peux.

[Doktor]

Ok let me go through legal issues (as far as I understand them) slowly. We know that someone or group associated with Muscovy (Roger Stone was in contact with Guccifer2 apparently) hacked the DNC and Podesta.

We know? How? How we know if it was the Russians? Who is Mr. Stone?

Can't go through the rest of it since there was NO FISA warrant till October, if any.

Either that or the fake news allegations are true.

[snapper]

We know? How? How we know if it was the Russians? Who is Mr. Stone?

Can't go through the rest of it since there was NO FISA warrant till October, if any.

Either that or the fake news allegations are true.

All 17 US Intelligence and law enforcement agree there was Muscovite interference. Roger Stone is a long time Trumpian and liar who has admitted having contact with Guccifer2 and volunteered to give evidence to the House Intel Committee but who now cannot do so on Tuesday. We do not know IF or WHEN there was a FISA court ruling; one of problems of secret courts being precisely that. It is better to have court hearing know of but held in camera if necessary but that is just my view.

[Parihaka]

what i find amusing here is the use of Alex-Jones like insinuation and conspiracy theory to justify a complete lack of evidence.

It's a really simple question Asty but you're apparently incapable of answering it

is the news pumped out for the last three months by you and your Democrat party and propaganda organs "Fake News", or has there been wholesale monitoring of Trump Inc?

You've made two statements over the last three months:
1: We've been wiretapping Trump Inc.
2: We haven't been wiretapping Trump Inc.

I think you're correct, there is a cult of ignorance in the United States, it just doesn't lie where you'd like to believe.

[Doktor]

All 17 US Intelligence and law enforcement agree there was Muscovite interference.

Really? I'd like to see those 17 reports and or the joint statement. Why does the Congress holds meeting when there is such an unanimous stance?

Roger Stone is a long time Trumpian and liar who has admitted having contact with Guccifer2 and volunteered to give evidence to the House Intel Committee but who now cannot do so on Tuesday.

You do understand how silly it looks, right? The bolded part.

We do not know IF or WHEN there was a Muscovite interfering; one of problems of secret agencies being precisely that.

Fixed it for you.

[snapper]

is the news pumped out for the last three months by you and your Democrat party and propaganda organs "Fake News", or has there been wholesale monitoring of Trump Inc?

You've made two statements over the last three months:
1: We've been wiretapping Trump Inc.
2: We haven't been wiretapping Trump Inc.

I think you're correct, there is a cult of ignorance in the United States, it just doesn't lie where you'd like to believe.

If you will allow me to answer (as much as I dislike being on the same side of the argument as astralis ordinarily);

There has been NO direct monitoring of "Trump Inc". All concerned deny this and it would be illegal. Nor has Trump produced a single piece of evidence for his claims that "Obama wiretapped me". It is none issue.

"1: We've been wiretapping Trump Inc.
2: We haven't been wiretapping Trump Inc."

First you have to understand who "we" is. It is not Obama. Then you have to understand who this "we" may be have been monitoring; Muscovites who they have "probable cause" to believe were part of the election interference operation. Now if Trump people are getting touch with those people that gets picked up but cannot be recorded. Hope that helps.

[Doktor]

S,

You must have missed the part where the MSM claimed Trump Inc have met Russian diplomats. Since it's against international conventions to monitor diplomats, who has been monitored? Either that or MSM lied aka fake news.

[snapper]

S,

You must have missed the part where the MSM claimed Trump Inc have met Russian diplomats. Since it's against international conventions to monitor diplomats, who has been monitored? Either that or MSM lied aka fake news.

The media are entitled to follow their own inquiries and look at photos etc... It does not need any detective or spook to 'tip them off' and there is no evidence than any tip off was given. They ask questions much the same the agencies doubtless and seek answers in the ways open to them. I was told that Kislyak being at the GOP nomination do was a pure open source spot by the media (a la Bellingcat). Whether the FBI or others knew he was there I do not know. I would presume they keep some sort of eye on the comings and goings of the Muscovite Embassy staff but am not privy to the details naturally.

[Doktor]

They never apologized, nor printed/published a rebuttal. Besides, AFAIK, the info should be verified before going public. So much from their ethics and their standards.

But fear not, their subscriptions ads are full of "truth", "reliable", "trustworthy"...

[snapper]

You think some parts of the media should apologise? Perhaps. I don't know what about; Sessions confirmed he met with Kislyak so presumably not that? Has Trump apologised? But you scraping the bottom of the barrel. No Obama did not wiretap Trump and yes the IC are investigating his links with Moscow.

[DOR]

S,

You must have missed the part where the MSM claimed Trump Inc have met Russian diplomats. Since it's against international conventions to monitor diplomats, who has been monitored? Either that or MSM lied aka fake news.

"Against international convention" ??
I think you mean "so commonplace no one thinks twice."

[Doktor]

"Against international convention" ??
I think you mean "so commonplace no one thinks twice."

No, it's against Vienna Convention.

[DOR]

No, it's against Vienna Convention.

AND, so commonplace no one thinks twice.

[Doktor]

AND, so commonplace no one thinks twice.

So, it's legal?

[Parihaka]

So, it turns out now Nunes met with "an intelligence official" at the Eisenhower building, said official showed him documents on a secure system that congress doesn't have access to. Best guess, the former administrations folders of collected information on Trump Inc. from various intelligence agencies. Perhaps the basis for this story?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/u...king.html?_r=0
Or this, which goes into more detail.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ction-hacking/

Hoist by their own petard perhaps?