Obama criticized for remarks on ISIS, Christianity

[Mihais]

Anyone who believes the Crusades were predominately motivated by religion needs to seriously re-examine their knowledge of history. The Crusades were not predominately motivated by religious belief. Starting with the 1st Crusade and going downhill from there the motivations were largely driven by geopolitical and economic forces dominating Europe at the time - primarily a request by the Byzantine Emperor to the West for men at arms to push back Muslim invaders following the defeat at Manzikert, a desire by the relevant Pope to impress and in debt the Orthodox Church and a surplus of landless peasants and Norman knights due in part to population growth and the gradual adoption of Patrilineal primogeniture as the standard inheritance system in Western Europe.

As for the comment that "This worked out pretty well for 900 years." again a review of European history would show that Europe was riven by systemic and almost continual warfare during the period in question. This is not to say that the primacy of the Church was the cause of these events but rather that the in the end the Church itself could do little to moderate them.

Correct about the Crusades.Don't think you're so correct about the rest.Warfare was the norm.Christianity did much to limit its effects.You don't get a pyramid of heads and you don't have mass burial alive
Christinity had a role in the eventual progress of the West.Starting with work ethics,individualism and personal responsability.
Christianity benefited the world.Otherwise you'd still have sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl.

Everything human has its downsizes.But there is too much BS about the wrongdoings of Christians(them bad white Europeans),almost nothing about the good and too much praise for the supposed virtues of everything else.

[Doktor]

So, in Obama's view, when will 4th Crusade begin?

[Mihais]

The least affected by religion of all :D

[Bigfella]

So, in Obama's view, when will 4th Crusade begin?

Some time last year apparently.

Putin attacked the U.S. and Europe yesterday for backing Ukraine, and likened Crimea, which his government annexed in March, to Russia’s “Jerusalem.”

Ukraine Prepares for Truce With Rebels as Both Voice Doubts - Bloomberg Business

But through the smoke and grime, Pavel Rasta sees a sacred city - and he's fighting for it, Kalashnikov in hand, just like the Crusaders fought for the heart of Christendom centuries ago. He may be a financial manager - most recently working in a funeral parlour - who's never held a gun before in his life, but he sees himself as the modern version of a medieval knight, dedicated to chivalrous ideas of Christian purity and defending the defenceless.....

"Why do I say Donetsk is Jerusalem? Because what's happening here is a holy war of the Russian people for its own future, for its own ideals, for its children and its great country that 25 years ago was divided into pieces," Pavel says.

BBC News - The Russians fighting a 'holy war' in Ukraine

[kato]

Thirty Years War is commonly recognized as the last major war over religion in the Western World.
Anyone here think that solved French-German relations?

What does the Thirty Years War have to do with the French? It was a civil war in which outside powers got involved only to grab up land and resources. In fact catholic France supported protestant German factions in the Thirty Years War.

The last traditional major religious war in the Western World between different Christian confessions was the Sonderbund War of 1847 btw. Like all other religious wars it was primarily driven by other purposes.

[GVChamp]

Monash,

Continual War in the Middle Ages was generally less dislocating and less damaging than any of the Modern Wars. Most of that you can attribute to State size, but Western Christendom had a variety of norms that contained the scope and duration of conflicts. There's a big difference between a raiding group of bored knights and Operation Barbarossa.

Kind of side-tracking, though, because I agree with you. Saying the Crusades were about "religion" is pretty much sophomoric simplification. There was a LOT going on, socially, economically, politically.

Same is true for ISIS, though, crazy shit like that doesn't happen in a vacuum!

EDIT: Here's my thing. If you read history of any sort, whether religious, historical, business, military, whatever....you eventually see all these Ozymandias figures obliterated by trends coming out of Left Field, that you never saw coming. This terrifies me, and makes me want to have a real strong understanding of the trends of previous societies. When people summarize things up like "Crusades were about religion" and "Separation of Church and State is obviously good, just look at all the wars started over religion," I get real nervous, because these ideas are wrong (or at least extremely simplified). I don't know if it will really matter that they are wrong, because we obviously believe in all sorts of Wrong things, but you never know which Stupid Idea gets you killed until Darwin "selects" you.

Kato,
My point is that the foundation of the Modern Era and the separation of Church and State hasn't really done anything to stop major wars, because most wars aren't ever really "caused" by religion. There's always more crap going on than "My God can beat up your God."

[Mihais]

Plus the relation was sorta reverse.''We beat you in the field,so our gods must be stronger''.Not ''our gods are stronger,so we're gonna start a war against you''.
It took secularism for entire groups of people to be demonized en masse.Cathar crusade were the exception,not the rule.

[antimony]

Christianity benefited the world.Otherwise you'd still have sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl.

Everything human has its downsizes.But there is too much BS about the wrongdoings of Christians(them bad white Europeans),almost nothing about the good and too much praise for the supposed virtues of everything else.

Stick to your opinions, I will stick to my facts. Every major religion screwed up the world. The dark ages and Crusades were Christianity. Hardcore Islam screwed up the civilization that the Middle East and everything since then; Hinduism screwed up the subcontinent

Religion poisons everything it touches, we would be much better without them. And before you ask, Stalin and Mao are NOT shining examples of either atheism or rational free thinking.

[Mihais]

You don't have facts.

[Blademaster]

Stick to your opinions, I will stick to my facts. Every major religion screwed up the world. The dark ages and Crusades were Christianity. Hardcore Islam screwed up the civilization that the Middle East and everything since then; Hinduism screwed up the subcontinent

Religion poisons everything it touches, we would be much better without them. And before you ask, Stalin and Mao are NOT shining examples of either atheism or rational free thinking.

Those are not facts. Those are just unsubstantiated opinions without any underlying facts to support them and only biased to support an assertion of fallacious "logic".

Going by your standards set forth in your assertions, one could just say that mankind's thinking is bad for the humanity and the world.

[Officer of Engineers]

I don't recall the Mongol slaughter had anything to do with any god ... except gold.

[tbm3fan]

Stick to your opinions, I will stick to my facts. Every major religion screwed up the world. The dark ages and Crusades were Christianity. Hardcore Islam screwed up the civilization that the Middle East and everything since then; Hinduism screwed up the subcontinent

Religion poisons everything it touches, we would be much better without them. And before you ask, Stalin and Mao are NOT shining examples of either atheism or rational free thinking.

You might have been better off if you had said that those who search for power and domination simply used religion as a reason to motivate a population whom might not be interested in all the geopolitical power grabbing going on. The average peasant probably could care less about what was going on 20 miles away until the "your religion is under attack" card was played. That is exactly how I see ISIS playing it.

[Officer of Engineers]

Even when you're being clobbered, religion can still be used against you. You've sin against God and that's why the Mongols are here - to punish you.

The Mongols couldn't care less about religion until after they settled in for the riches ... including cultural riches.

[Mihais]

Yes,but those who had the fight taken out of them said that.The others saw the spawn of Satan,that needed to be dealt with.And as victories gathered,that view prevailed.
Religion even in this case is a secondary thing.To leadership and morale.

[Officer of Engineers]

What victories?