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RSS 're-converts' 200 Agra Muslims, says more in line
It is not a sideshow, when you have the ruling party engineering communal riots and conniving to eliminate the existence of religious communities in the country. This is sectarianism and fascism.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
In one of the general election threads of May 2014, one of our members said that "an egg would be on my face". Well, the events of the past 7 months have more than proved that I was right.
Don't forget the vast Hindu empires in Sth East Asia that stretched from the borders of what is now India through modern Myanmar, Thaliand, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia & the Philippines.
Irrelevant to Indian context.
You can go back as far as you can but you will be not allowed to go back further from birth of Christ or when the native religion of India was first challenged by any Abrahamic religion. The historic examples cactus has given are irrelevant as well and doesn't prove your POV which you see though the prim of a missionary or forced conversion. Your definitions were invented when Christianity start spreading. The native religion to India that is Hinduism remained unchallenged; religious conquest free.
Those who assimilated into Hinduism could never have been monitored or placed in hierarchy of Hindu system of cast and more strict classification of Gotra by any governing authority. They were uninvited followers who established themselves in any appropriate position in the society depending on their strength and persuasion of priest or the king. Interestingly many have their own lineage still intact most of them benefiting from the real definition of cast, that is defined by one's profession.
A now-departed troll tried to argue that all these people came to Hinduism without conversion. It increasingly appears that the 'Hindus are born & not converted' line is a lot more about a victimhood mythology (nicely illustrated by Ambidex) than it is about anything remotely factual. It also allows activists to make claims that people whose families have been Muslim or Christian for centuries (Christianity has been in India for something like 1700 years) are really 'Hindu'.
You are coming back every time with personal attacks loaded with theories who do not want to stand opinion of the other side. Your habit of issuing certificate is notorious if not despicable. People know what religious ideology you represent therefore I don't think there is a need of setting the rule of the game when I will be answering your posts.
If you think you can get away by calling principles followed by Hindus pertaining to their recorded lineage which are detailed in Hindu scripts as mythology then you are fooling yourself. There can be no bigger myths other than what Christians believe in, even when Christianity is constrained by recorded Historicity if its own.
Every time I have given my view it has been a lengthy proposition covering all the aspects of Hindu religion, pertaining to sections who MIGHT have been so called converts and many purest of pure casts living in India who have been surviving till today with proven continuity. I am repeating again, the orthodox Hinduism (THE REAL HINDUISM) especially Brahmins reject this notion of conversion. There is no provision in Hinduism to stop anyone neither leaving the religion nor converting into Hindus. Read Gotra
On the broader issue,
Fuck the broader issue; there is no border issue for you to ponder before you get your facts right about Hinduism first.
Religion & religious conversion are a private matter. No business of the state. If people choose to sell their religious identity for a school, a hospital, 30 pieces of silver or an iPhone then good luck to them. If people do it because they think it will advance their circumstances or because they genuinely believe then good luck to them too.
Spoken like a true missionary who has not uttered a single word about mal-practices of Christians and the witchcraft they enact in India doing mass conversions. In other words denying the Hindus what they are objecting.
If a Dalit wants to escape their place in society by exiting a religion that reinforces it then well done that person.
Spoken like a true missionary well done to you. You cannot exploit many fault line of Hinduism from lineage to cast-ism in one go. After doing away with free run of missionaries and a bringing their proliferation to natural levels, cast and myths related to cast will be addressed as well. BTW PM of India belongs to a backward class.
If a Muslim suddenly discovers their inner Hindu then have at it (I wonder how many people convert to lower castes).
No you do not wonder anything because you don't know anything about India politics.
However, the people making the conversions need to understand that people can also convert right back for whatever reason they choose. The use of threats to convert people IS the business of the state, as it is whenever threats are made to compel action.
What do you mean by this?
What you have been seeing recently is not called as conversion per say but re conversion or home coming. The targeted population was Hindu which they believe was forcefully converted. To find a Muslim in India who can recall his Hindu ancestry is not a common entity even today.
Having said all above I strongly reject what these Hindu groups are doing. I have only said what I observed and guessed about their moves. I can see from where they are coming and I believe it is two to tango but blame goes to who so ever started it.
I have never approved their effort of bringing others into Hinduism because I believe in Hindu orthodox system of lineage.
He hasn't even read the study himself. Some psedu-secular reporter used the study to give it anti BJP findings. BTW this study has more claims than statistics.
) 1961; February 4–9: Jabalpur (Madhya Pradesh)
Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 80% Hindus, 14% Muslims
Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh: K.N. Katju, Congress Party, January 1957 - March 1962
2) 1961, October 3: Aligarh (Uttar Pradesh) 57% Hindus, 41% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: C. B. Gupta, Congress Party, December 1960–October 1963
3) 1961, October 5–8: Meerut (Uttar Pradesh) 61% Hindus, 36% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: C. B. Gupta, Congress Party, December 1960–October 1963
4) 1964; March: Calcutta (West Bengal), Jamshedpur (Bihar), Rourkela (Orissa)
Calcutta 78% Hindus, 20% Muslims
Chief Minister of West Bengal: P. Chandra Sen, Congress Party, July 1962–March 1967
5) 1967; August 22–29: Ranchi (Bihar) 63% Hindus, 17% Muslims
Chief Minister of Bihar: Mahamaya Pd Sinha, Jan Kranti Dal, March 1967–January 1968 (Members Bioprofile)
6) 1968; March: Karimganj (Assam) 47% Hindus, 52% Muslims
Chief Minister of Assam: B. P. Chaliha, Congress Party, December 1957–November 1970
7) 1969; September 18–24: Ahmedabad (Gujarat) Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 81% Hindus, 14% Muslims
Chief Minister of Gujarat: Hitendra K. Desai, Congress Party, October 1965–May 1971
8) 1970; May 7–8: Bhiwandi (Maharashtra) 44% Hindus, 51% Muslims
Chief Minister of Maharashtra: Vasantrao P. Naik, Congress Party, December 1963–February 1975
1) 1974; May 5: Delhi 81% Hindus, 12% Muslims
Chief Minister of Delhi: none, Delhi was, as of that date, a Union Territory, not a state
{Congress party was there in central govt, Indira Gandhi was the PM of India then.....(1966 to 24 March 1977)}
2) 1977; October 22–23: Varanasi (Uttar Pradesh) 68% Hindus, 31% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: Ram Naresh Yadav, Janata Party, June 1977–February 1979
3) 1978; March 29: Sambhal (Uttar Pradesh) 54% Hindus, 46% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: Ram Naresh Yadav, Janata Party, June 1977–February 1979
4) 1978; March 31–April 4: Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) 54% Hindus, 43% Muslims
Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh: Marri Chenna Reddy , Congress Party, March 1978–October 1980
5) 1978; October 5 and November 6: Aligarh (Uttar Pradesh) 57% Hindus, 41% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: Ram Naresh Yadav, Janata Party, June 1977–February 1979
6) 1979; April 11: Jamshedpur (Bihar) 81% Hindus, 9% Muslims
Chief Minister of Bihar: Karpoori Thakur, Janata Party, June 1977 - 21 April 1979
1) 1980; August 13–14: Moradabad (Uttar Pradesh) Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 50% Hindus, 49% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: V.P. Singh, Congress Party, June 1980–July 1982
2) 1980, October–1981, May: Godhra (Gujarat) 51% Hindus, 46% Muslims
Chief Minister of Gujarat: Madhavsingh Solanki, Congress Party, June 1980–August 1985
3) 1981; April 30–May 5: Biharsharif (Bihar) 63% Hindus, 37% Muslims
Chief Minister of Bihar: Jagannath Mishra, Congress (I), June 1980–August 1983
4) 1981; July 12–20: Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) 54% Hindus, 43% Muslims
Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh: Tanguturi Anjaiah, Congress Party, October 1980–February 1982
5) 1982, February 15–18: Pune and Solapur (Maharashtra) PUNE 80% Hindus, 9% Muslims
SOLAPUR 76% Hindus, 19% Muslims
Chief Minister of Maharashtra: Babasaheb Bhosale, Congress Party, January 1982–February 1983
6) 1982; September 29–October 2: Meerut (Uttar Pradesh) Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 61% Hindus, 36% Muslims
Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh: Sripat Mishra, Congress Party, July 1982–August 1984
7) 1982; October 22–30: Baroda (Gujarat) Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 85% Hindus, 11% Muslims
Chief Minister of Gujarat: Madhavsingh Solanki, Congress Party, June 1980–August 1985
8) 1983; February 18: Nellie (Assam) Religious composition of the population in the district (as per the 2001 census): 48% Hindus, 51% Muslims
Chief Minister of Assam: no Chief Minister between March 1982 and 27 February 1983
{Again congress party rule in center govt}
9) 1983; September 7–9: Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) 54% Hindus, 43% Muslims
Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh: N. T. Rama Rao, Telugu Desam Party (TDP), January 1983–August 1984
10) 1984; May 17–18: Bombay and Bhiwandi (Maharashtra) Bombay 67% Hindus, 19% Muslims
Bhiwandi 44% Hindus, 51% Muslims
Chief Minister of Maharashtra: Vasantrao Patil, Congress Party, February 1983–June 1985
11) 1984; July and September: Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) Religious composition of the population (as per the 2001 census): 54% Hindus, 43% Muslims
Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh: N.T. Rama Rao, Telugu Desam Party, January 1983–August 1984
N. Bhaskara Rao, Congress (I), August 1984–16 September1984
12) 1984; October 31–November 4: Delhi 81% Hindus, 12% Muslims, 4% Sikhs
Chief Minister of Delhi: none, Delhi was then a Union Territory, not a state
{Congress -I
13) 1985; March 18–25; April 15–29; 1986; July 9–14: Ahmedabad (Gujarat) 81% Hindus, 14% Muslims
Chief Minister of Gujarat: Madhavsinh Solanki, Congress Party, June 1980–August 1985, Amarsinh Chaudhury, Congress Party, August 1985–December 1989
After 2002 Gujarat riots Congress-I booted out BJP in 2004 general election.
The thing is over anxious MPs trying to do more than their brief. I don't sense a communal agenda over it, but Smriti Irani should have known 25th-Dec is Christmas. Why give the opposition or the media any fuel?
Alright, didn't have time to read it completely before read the circular now.. it does looks like something that they wanted to do to please the right wing groups. I do blame the congress government in a way that they all these years been indulging in pleasing these minority groups and now the right wing groups kind of want to give it back in someway. Those that tried conversion in Agra has been booked and iirc even arrested now what ?
Points 2 & 3 have activities that can only be done in school and the last para, asks for proof of activities by photograph/ video. Thereby, trying to ensure that the school remains open and these sham activities are carried out just so that a community can be put down.
This is not TRP, this report put the BJP on the back foot and exposed their communal agenda.
This is the only reason I ever opposed them, performance wise they are just as idiotic as the Congress.
Alright I will give it you, this does in a way look like something that they did to please the right wing groups. I hope this doesn't continue. And why is the so called secular parties of India are opposing the anti conversion law when it will ban the forced conversions ? You are not opposing it and I am not opposing it but the opposition is. They always had. Whenever I said there were forced conversion I was told it is not force conversion and you guys were okay with them paying money to them to convert to Christianity or Islam and I was even told once to use the temple funds to do that. Now that's exactly what those right wing groups are doing and everybody is moaning. Whatever....
That's a bad precedent, and is not going to change anytime soon. Minorities will remain apprehensive as long as hate speeches by BJP leaders flows. Happens on both sides.
As long as minorities always feel insecure and not admit to their back stage activities the right wing groups will continue to sling dirt. So it's kind of a deadlock. Someone has to give in first.
BJP also does that with the majority. Don't you understand politics? What have I been posting here? Don't you understand simple English?
I understand politics upto a level thank you. The vote bank politics was not introduced by BJP and as long as the opposition and minority groups use it for their gain even right wing groups will do it period.
Not all Hindus are communal. Not all Hindus are bloodthirsty. Not all Hindus spew venom at every given opportunity. What's the vote share that BJP had this time?
Ofcourse not and that's why the population of so called minority groups have grown otherwise we shouldn't be seeing any Muslim or Christian on the street now would we ? just like in Pakistan or Bangladesh.
Doesn't hardcore Hindutva guys say Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are offshoot religions of Hinduism?
Are they objecting it ? someone once said I don't remember who that Hinduism is not a religion but a group of people that lived beyond Indus river and were called Hindu's and the founder of that religion Buddha was a born Hindu and so was for Jainism if i am not wrong. We accept all religion unlike other religion that can't accpet the fact that there is no other god apart from theirs.
I don't know what you are talking about. Post some links for me to go through.
Are you on drugs? Stop this nonsense right there and don't get personal. I am a Hindu. You might have a lot of free time, stop wasting mine. You don't read articles fully, nor do you learn.
I am not on drugs thank you and I don't have to learn from people who don't understand or acknowledge the issue themselves fully and keep on harping something. I presumed you were not Hindu and for that I apologise.
There is a video on youtube about a VHP leader saying Godhra riots was a tit-for-tat for the burning of the karsevaks. Did he go to jail? No one goes to jail in India for hate speeches because of political patronage.
Yeah well someone has to stop first. Let them decide who should.
What's the damn connection? Why do you always change topic?
That long post was on a personal note to you and just used your last post to quote you. Maybe I should have removed everything that was within the quotes first. Whatever. There is not damn connection in anything , everything is just a random incident. Happy ?
No never, because these are seen as Indian, excluding Parsis (as they stopped and conversions 1000 yrs ago due to fears of the local King, hence a non-Parsi cannot unter their temples).
They came here to safeguard themselves from invaders and we gave them protection unlike those that came in preaching religion and we later know what happened.
One reason is because Muslims are seen as a relic of the Islamic rule over India and the destruction of Hindu religious sites; Christians are seen in light of the British/ Portuguese rule.
Possible and I agree to an extent. Although I understand the present day Muslims or Christians have no connection with whatsoever happened long back they have to understand that the present generation of Hindu's were not the one's that they were before too.
Second reason is the teaching of M.S Golwalker that all non-Hindus were to be treated as second class citizens and did not have the right to exist in India.
That guy is a nut case and many knows that. How many Hindu's you see today even know him? Had that been the case there wouldn't have been muslim's or christians living in India.
By all means use the law on them who insult you.
Already did and still they keep on pestering about using their financial clout and politics. So called secular parties that many favour here haven't done much either to control them. What now ?
You either don't know much about them or are feigning it. These louts are the BJPs vote earners from the polarised population.
Please look up youetube, and you will get tons of VHP "priests" propagating killing all muslims and Christians - "phehele kasai, phir isai" (first the Muslims then the Christians).
I was only referring to those that have some media limelight anyway. I agree religious nuts are everywhere but just that the religious nuts on the otherside were given a leeway over the nuts on this side and that has infuriated these nuts. So if those responsible had been more "secular" we wouldn't have been in this situation anyway.
It is the misfortune of this nation that the first 7 months are spent in communal frenzy, with almost "zero" work on development.
The nation has been fooled and lied to, every major decision opposed by the BJP in the past is being implemented by them now.
Why? did they hold this country to ransom all these years - only to grab power. The nation and the people means nothing to them.
You see what you want to see, there are some major reforms happening behind the screens and you guys have waited for 67 years and in only 7 months you are expecting heaven on earth ?
That long post was on a personal note to you and just used your last post to quote you. Maybe I should have removed everything that was within the quotes first. Whatever. There is not damn connection in anything , everything is just a random incident. Happy ?
You're a young guy, and by that I don't mean stupid (as you assumed once earlier), so there is still time for you to base your opinions or have solid convictions after you have heard all - media, posters, scholars. Take hate out. There are good and bad sides to everything. UPA's gain was the Indo-US nuclear deal by showing off balls to the Left and the BJP. That they could not take it forward is a lost cause, however that was a gain for India. BJP would capitalize on that in the near future and you can mark my words. BJP opposed many things then, what BJP now wants to legislate. And Congress is playing spoil sport now as opposition. This is the natural order of politics in India. Take good out of every party or thing, let go of the negatives. Have an open mind to accept fault. Like the torture topic, or the villagers not doing enough to stop those 2 woman with revolvers. There are many wise-men here who have seen it all, and through their posts give us an insight and try to guide us. Give it a thought before continuing with the same logic again.
I said sometime back that India is going through a churning process. Right now things are not great, but I believe after 20 years we'd do well in International standings. The communal make-up needs to go. Don't stick to what Muslims and Christians have done or are doing. You find something wrong, talk about it. Wrong even with your religion, state, community, caste and all of the things you can think of. A wrong is wrong, even if someone else is doing it. And that does not justify another wrong. And as about someone has to stop first, you can be that guy.
And no need to apologize for something you didn't know. Just ask. This is a personal note to you.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
Now you're trying to settle score with what happened in 1687. :pari:
My bad, writing a personal note. Don't bother about it. Do continue.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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