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RSS 're-converts' 200 Agra Muslims, says more in line
There is no law to stop it, except in some states ruled by "communal" governments.
No law to stop means that it has happened?
Who used government machinery?[/QUOTE]
So how do BPL cards, ration cards come about?
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus
All arguments put up by the BJP/ RSS are a clever ruse to fool the majority of Hindus who support them. If the Hindus realise the true aim of the Sangh then RSS would loose its support base.
I bet there is no shortage of people who would like to set & define that aim
The sooner people realise this the better it will be for our country.
This blog post will be right up your street, that is until you get to the part about 'indian republic' and impugning the IA then you won't agree. That bit comes from Perry Anderson of the left. He wrote a harsh book on India recently, came across like a latter day Churchill as to the viability of the indian state.
There is the left and the right and both are competing for attention. The common person gets his head down and ignores them because it isn't worth the headache or counters both of them.
The events of the past 7 months indicate that my fears (on communal and sectarian growth)on the pre-election threads...are coming true.
1. Engineered riots in Moradabad July 2014.
2. Engineered riots in Trilokpuri, Delhi Oct 2014.
3. Attempts to engineer riots in Oct 2014 Delhi's Bawana in the West, Majnu ka Tilla in the North and Okhla in the South. When Muharram processions were banned by local Panchayats.
4. In Bastar, Bihar, Bajrang Dal assault Christians when their "reconversion" ceremony flopped.
5. VHP's imposing its terror on Church runs schools.
6. This is statement shows how daft the Sangh is - Why Santa distributes chocolates? asks VHP - The Times of India
7. Burning of the St Sebastian Church in east Delhi Dec 2014.
8. RSS says it converted 200 Muslims into Hindus in Agra.
9. RSS body seeks donations to fund Christmas ‘conversions’ in Aligarh.
I see this as a sideshow, background noise, low level. When the BJP comes to power, all sorts of outfits come crawling out of the woodwork pushing their own agendas and demanding their pound of flesh. They are appeased in the larger interests, up to a point. Throw them a bone here & there.
8 cities in India account for 46% of riot related deaths. These are cities with deep communal faultlines. Things spark off on their own or are instigated.
This is not a BJP for development , this is BJP for sectarianism.
That would be a weak BJP. Modi's campaign speeches did not contain much anti-muslim rhetoric like accompanied the rise of the previous NDA. Advani was a real firebrand. Who is is his equivalent in this administration. Modi wants to put 2002 behind him and does not want to revisit it. That means he has an interest not to have things boil over.
This idea if BJP becomes weak then they will start something, what could they do last time. They had to bow out in the end. When the BJP is weak its like an army without discipline, all sorts of tensions and pressures building up. The electorate is fickle.
This idea of weak then attack to distract was reflected in a thread some time back about China. Their economy falters, sometime around 2017, go attack India (!)
As stated by ambidex about BJP's black money pre-poll promise, you can start a new thread, while we discuss the intended topic in here.
If you are to know my opinion - well file an FIR and let police do their job. The money trail could be interesting. If convicted, prosecute them to the maximum extent possible under law. All religious nutjobs should be burnt on stakes (literally), however we need to make sure they get a fair trial.
The link he has posted relates to topic in hand. If you can post a jibe (Op-ed) on money involved in re-converting Hindus then people have right to known how much funding allegedly coming to missionaries from foreign sources. It is always the money trail a best marker to start with understanding the organized phenomena like such.
It is the selective ridicule against Hindus and compulsive appeasement that has been on going because of patronage by pseudo-secular parties and their media mafias that has cause resentment in Hindus who otherwise had no malignant conflicts, especially with Christians.
During patrician only one religious ethnicity was immune to attacks and that was Christians both in India and Pakistan. My city of 3500000 populations, a Christian Medical college has been serving the city from many decades and is known for its services and care, best among all other institutes. There were Hindu staff members I personally know converted to Christianity; are proud citizens of India. When I was working for a private hospital my boss would always tell me to uproot CMC staff because they are honest and hardworking. Every morning the Patients regardless of their religion listen to people visiting them saying prayers for their faster recovery, singing songs in local language of praising Yeshu Masih (Jesus Christ). No one has ever objected to propagation of the religion or conversions there.
I can see people representing Christians appearing on TV debates playing over sanctimonious and lacking thick skin at the same time. The problem only starts when one religion starts associating with one political party and start paddling political agenda at local level then so and so forth. Indians are political animals, like Hindus, Sikhs... everyone has the right to participate in politics of the town city and state. Being political has its own pro and cons. The same way being apolitical has its own pros and cons, one disadvantage I can identify is having no political representation. But then one must not play victim when peddling a political agenda or a religious agenda with political patronage because this will for sure give excuse to opposition to re-organize, re-group to come hard at them with all kinds of accusations including targeting one's religion.
The resolution will be reached when there will be openness in discussing the grievances of all involved or affected, by both side of the politics and forming a law rather than each side doing back door deals for electoral benefits. Not to mention the law will always a subject to be challenged in courts by aggrieving religion.
My money will be again on law and enforcement. The The problem here in India is politicization of policing.
All the laws to punish criminals and to protect rights already exists. I do not see the need to have a anti riot anti conversion law, it's more or less the politicisation angle to make them. There are however several reforms that should be made to address the rot within police politician bureaucrats the judiciary.
The population make up is not going to change, the only thing that is making a difference is that people change their attitude towards each other, there is nothing India will win out of this increasing divide.
The link he has posted relates to topic in hand. If you can post a jibe (Op-ed) on money involved in re-converting Hindus then people have right to known how much funding allegedly coming to missionaries from foreign sources. It is always the money trail a best marker to start with understanding the organized phenomena like such.
Jibe? That was a fact thrown at Hindutva internet warriors who rant all the time about Hindus being converted by Muslims and Missionaries. Now you know that shit happens, and it happens throughout the spectrum. You cannot be selective when you criticise me not to discuss BJP's pre-poll promises. This thread is about forced and fraudulent conversions by the Sangh Parivar, aided by the BJP government, not Missionaries.
It is the selective ridicule against Hindus and compulsive appeasement that has been on going because of patronage by pseudo-secular parties and their media mafias that has cause resentment in Hindus who otherwise had no malignant conflicts, especially with Christians.
Agree to an extent. But what selective ridicule against Hindus? Should people in India start applauding RSS for riots? Do you not criticize incidents of vandalism by Muslims, riots, Owaisi's hate filled speeches against Hindus. It's freedom of expression in a democracy. People have the right to think, judge and speak out. You cannot take it away, because if you do, you don't have it too. Either it's for all, or for none.
Now comes appeasement on which you are somewhat correct and I know it is Congress you're pointing to. Yes, Congress has done that, hate them all you want. I hate them too, and I hate them more because of reservations. TMC is doing that in Bengal, SP in UP. This is endless. People in power would do everything possible to remain in power. In a country of 1.2+ billion, no one cares if a few thousands die. But isn't the BJP doing the same now? Okay, let me put it in a way you'd like - why is the BJP being myopic of what's happening since it assumed office? Sure, Mr. Modi comes out and requests people on his side to stop giving out hate filled sermons, but no one is listening. Should I now conclude that Mr. Modi is incompetent? What you probably don't want to see is vote bank politics. Politicians have been doing that, and will continue doing that. If you are so concerned about Hindus getting converted, we need to talk about Caste being banned among Hindus. Trolls coming out in droves, throwing a bone here and there are simplistic not realistic, coz' before getting to the bone many pounds of flesh would need be extracted.
We have had a Government that we needed after 10 years of misrule. Incidents like these will only hamper the progress BJP promised. Stalling of parliament, laws and regulations not being discussed, opposition converting small issues into bigger ones. The end result - Congress again comes to power in 2018. That would be a day for collective suicide.
During patrician only one religious ethnicity was immune to attacks and that was Christians both in India and Pakistan. My city of 3500000 populations, a Christian Medical college has been serving the city from many decades and is known for its services and care, best among all other institutes. There were Hindu staff members I personally know converted to Christianity; are proud citizens of India. When I was working for a private hospital my boss would always tell me to uproot CMC staff because they are honest and hardworking. Every morning the Patients regardless of their religion listen to people visiting them saying prayers for their faster recovery, singing songs in local language of praising Yeshu Masih (Jesus Christ). No one has ever objected to propagation of the religion or conversions there.
That is tolerance and respect on display. A good example of communal harmony.
I can see people representing Christians appearing on TV debates playing over sanctimonious and lacking thick skin at the same time. The problem only starts when one religion starts associating with one political party and start paddling political agenda at local level then so and so forth. Indians are political animals, like Hindus, Sikhs... everyone has the right to participate in politics of the town city and state. Being political has its own pro and cons. The same way being apolitical has its own pros and cons, one disadvantage I can identify is having no political representation. But then one must not play victim when peddling a political agenda or a religious agenda with political patronage because this will for sure give excuse to opposition to re-organize, re-group to come hard at them with all kinds of accusations including targeting one's religion.
The resolution will be reached when there will be openness in discussing the grievances of all involved or affected, by both side of the politics and forming a law rather than each side doing back door deals for electoral benefits. Not to mention the law will always a subject to be challenged in courts by aggrieving religion.
Probably. Let see what the future holds.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
The thing is over anxious MPs trying to do more than their brief. I don't sense a communal agenda over it, but Smriti Irani should have known 25th-Dec is Christmas. Why give the opposition or the media any fuel?
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
Well, that's just the thing, how do you know if what was done was out of free will or not unless this goes to court? And without an anti-conversion law, this can't go to court. What will you arrest the "priests" for? They didn't put a gun to anyone's heads. They lured people in with promises of monetary, social and spiritual benefits and perhaps lied to them about what exactly they were getting into. No more than what any missionary would do, but they ofcourse stick to rural areas and avoid media glare.
Reports indicated that. Overall, you're correct on the technicality of this issue. So, would a anti-conversion law that let's people convert of his own will help? There would be issues even then I guess.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
The thing is over anxious MPs trying to do more than their brief. I don't sense a communal agenda over it, but Smriti Irani should have known 25th-Dec is Christmas. Why give the opposition or the media any fuel?
Oracle, I have nothing against christians or muslims. Especially coming from a state that has never (touch wood) seen a communal violence against any religion and I am damn proud of it. There might be small clashes but that's mostly local goonda's trying to give it a religious spin but for the most part it never works. The only bomb blast that ever happened was in Coimbatore when Advani was doing his nation wide tour. Did the muslim fringe group even think about how many innocent Hindu's AND muslim's they killed because of that ? no. Did we start butchering Muslim's ? no. These day's even TN is starting to fall victim to this why ? because here in coastal area's the pasto's and churches control pretty much everything. Right from who comes to power in those area's to the local administration. Did they use it for constructive purpose? no. They are using their power to indulge in corruption as much as anyone else. Same goes for the Muslim community.
Even if anyone wants to come to power they need to please these local churches & muslim groups with whatever means possible to get their vote bank. You see the minority groups are assuming before hand they have to play the vote bank politics in order to keep themselves safe. Why is that ? If the same is done by Hindu's do you think any other leader would emerge from any other religion apart from Hindu's ? After all we outnumber everyone here. Did Hindu's ever had issues with Buddhists ? or Jains ? or Parsis ? Why only Christians or Muslims ? Especially when these churches try their dirty hands in religious places like Tirupati how do you think we should feel about that ? Did you see Hindu groups standing outside your major worship place trying to convert you lot to Hinduism ? Come on... if they want to reap souls atleast show some respect and don't do it near major religious places. Now the kind of hate speech by Owaisi's in hyderabad is by any Hindu leader he would be behind bars did it happen to him ? no. I agree Adithyanath's and Sadhvi Niranjan's are stupid too but they didn't say we will butcher every muslim or christian ? why did the muslim community let him go ? so blaming everything on the Hindu's without accepting the faults on other side is what the cause of the issues.
Captain, you and I very well know how the Indian media or any media house works. They do anything for TRP and especially on the current government. There is a proverb in Tamil that goes something like this when you are in fear, everything will look like a ghost.
Points 2 & 3 have activities that can only be done in school and the last para, asks for proof of activities by photograph/ video. Thereby, trying to ensure that the school remains open and these sham activities are carried out just so that a community can be put down.
This is not TRP, this report put the BJP on the back foot and exposed their communal agenda.
This is the only reason I ever opposed them, performance wise they are just as idiotic as the Congress.
Oracle, I have nothing against christians or muslims. Especially coming from a state that has never (touch wood) seen a communal violence against any religion and I am damn proud of it. There might be small clashes but that's mostly local goonda's trying to give it a religious spin but for the most part it never works. The only bomb blast that ever happened was in Coimbatore when Advani was doing his nation wide tour. Did the muslim fringe group even think about how many innocent Hindu's AND muslim's they killed because of that ? no. Did we start butchering Muslim's ? no. These day's even TN is starting to fall victim to this why ? because here in coastal area's the pasto's and churches control pretty much everything. Right from who comes to power in those area's to the local administration. Did they use it for constructive purpose? no. They are using their power to indulge in corruption as much as anyone else. Same goes for the Muslim community.
That's a bad precedent, and is not going to change anytime soon. Minorities will remain apprehensive as long as hate speeches by BJP leaders flows. Happens on both sides.
Even if anyone wants to come to power they need to please these local churches & muslim groups with whatever means possible to get their vote bank. You see the minority groups are assuming before hand they have to play the vote bank politics in order to keep themselves safe. Why is that?
BJP also does that with the majority. Don't you understand politics? What have I been posting here? Don't you understand simple English?
If the same is done by Hindu's do you think any other leader would emerge from any other religion apart from Hindu's?
Not all Hindus are communal. Not all Hindus are bloodthirsty. Not all Hindus spew venom at every given opportunity. What's the vote share that BJP had this time?
Did you see Hindu groups standing outside your major worship place trying to convert you lot to Hinduism ? Come on... if they want to reap souls atleast show some respect and don't do it near major religious places.
Are you on drugs? Stop this nonsense right there and don't get personal. I am a Hindu. You might have a lot of free time, stop wasting mine. You don't read articles fully, nor do you learn.
Now the kind of hate speech by Owaisi's in hyderabad is by any Hindu leader he would be behind bars did it happen to him ? no. I agree Adithyanath's and Sadhvi Niranjan's are stupid too but they didn't say we will butcher every muslim or christian ? why did the muslim community let him go ? so blaming everything on the Hindu's without accepting the faults on other side is what the cause of the issues.
There is a video on youtube about a VHP leader saying Godhra riots was a tit-for-tat for the burning of the karsevaks. Did he go to jail? No one goes to jail in India for hate speeches because of political patronage.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
Oracle, I have nothing against christians or muslims. Especially coming from a state that has never (touch wood) seen a communal violence against any religion and I am damn proud of it. There might be small clashes but that's mostly local goonda's trying to give it a religious spin but for the most part it never works. The only bomb blast that ever happened was in Coimbatore when Advani was doing his nation wide tour. Did the muslim fringe group even think about how many innocent Hindu's AND muslim's they killed because of that ? no. Did we start butchering Muslim's ? no. These day's even TN is starting to fall victim to this why ? because here in coastal area's the pasto's and churches control pretty much everything. Right from who comes to power in those area's to the local administration. Did they use it for constructive purpose? no. They are using their power to indulge in corruption as much as anyone else. Same goes for the Muslim community.
Even if anyone wants to come to power they need to please these local churches & muslim groups with whatever means possible to get their vote bank. You see the minority groups are assuming before hand they have to play the vote bank politics in order to keep themselves safe. Why is that ? If the same is done by Hindu's do you think any other leader would emerge from any other religion apart from Hindu's ? After all we outnumber everyone here. Did Hindu's ever had issues with Buddhists ? or Jains ? or Parsis ? Why only Christians or Muslims ? Especially when these churches try their dirty hands in religious places like Tirupati how do you think we should feel about that ? Did you see Hindu groups standing outside your major worship place trying to convert you lot to Hinduism ? Come on... if they want to reap souls atleast show some respect and don't do it near major religious places. Now the kind of hate speech by Owaisi's in hyderabad is by any Hindu leader he would be behind bars did it happen to him ? no. I agree Adithyanath's and Sadhvi Niranjan's are stupid too but they didn't say we will butcher every muslim or christian ? why did the muslim community let him go ? so blaming everything on the Hindu's without accepting the faults on other side is what the cause of the issues.
The thing is over anxious MPs trying to do more than their brief. I don't sense a communal agenda over it, but Smriti Irani should have known 25th-Dec is Christmas. Why give the opposition or the media any fuel?
What's the damn connection? Why do you always change topic?
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
Did Hindu's ever had issues with Buddhists ? or Jains ? or Parsis ?
No never, because these are seen as Indian, excluding Parsis (as they stopped and conversions 1000 yrs ago due to fears of the local King, hence a non-Parsi cannot unter their temples).
Why only Christians or Muslims ?
One reason is because Muslims are seen as a relic of the Islamic rule over India and the destruction of Hindu religious sites; Christians are seen in light of the British/ Portuguese rule.
Second reason is the teaching of M.S Golwalker that all non-Hindus were to be treated as second class citizens and did not have the right to exist in India.
Especially when these churches try their dirty hands in religious places like Tirupati how do you think we should feel about that ? Did you see Hindu groups standing outside your major worship place trying to convert you lot to Hinduism ? Come on... if they want to reap souls atleast show some respect and don't do it near major religious places.
By all means use the law on them who insult you.
I agree Adithyanath's and Sadhvi Niranjan's are stupid too but they didn't say we will butcher every muslim or christian ?
You either don't know much about them or are feigning it. These louts are the BJPs vote earners from the polarised population.
Please look up youetube, and you will get tons of VHP "priests" propagating killing all muslims and Christians - "phehele kasai, phir isai" (first the Muslims then the Christians).
It is the misfortune of this nation that the first 7 months are spent in communal frenzy, with almost "zero" work on development.
The nation has been fooled and lied to, every major decision opposed by the BJP in the past is being implemented by them now.
Why? did they hold this country to ransom all these years - only to grab power. The nation and the people means nothing to them.
It is the misfortune of this nation that the first 7 months are spent in communal frenzy, with almost "zero" work on development.
The nation has been fooled and lied to, every major decision opposed by the BJP in the past is being implemented by them now.
Why did they hold this country to ransom all these years - only to grab power. The nation and the people means nothing to them.
Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
What do you mean by "recently"? Sakas (Indo-Scythians, 1900 years back), Kushans (Yuezhi, 1700 years back), Hunas (White Huns, 1400 years back), Tai (Ahom, 700 years back), etc. are only some of the largest tribes/communities coming in from Central Asia (in the North West) and Tibetan-Burmese areas (in the North East), who became "Hindu".
Don't forget the vast Hindu empires in Sth East Asia that stretched from the borders of what is now India through modern Myanmar, Thaliand, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia & the Philippines. A now-departed troll tried to argue that all these people came to Hinduism without conversion. It increasingly appears that the 'Hindus are born & not converted' line is a lot more about a victimhood mythology (nicely illustrated by Ambidex) than it is about anything remotely factual. It also allows activists to make claims that people whose families have been Muslim or Christian for centuries (Christianity has been in India for something like 1700 years) are really 'Hindu'.
On the broader issue, religion & religious conversion are a private matter. No business of the state. If people choose to sell their religious identity for a school, a hospital, 30 pieces of silver or an iPhone then good luck to them. If people do it because they think it will advance their circumstances or because they genuinely believe then good luck to them too. If a Dalit wants to escape their place in society by exiting a religion that reinforces it then well done that person. If a Muslim suddenly discovers their inner Hindu then have at it (I wonder how many people convert to lower castes). However, the people making the conversions need to understand that people can also convert right back for whatever reason they choose. The use of threats to convert people IS the business of the state, as it is whenever threats are made to compel action.
This blog post will be right up your street, that is until you get to the part about 'indian republic' and impugning the IA then you won't agree. That bit comes from Perry Anderson of the left. He wrote a harsh book on India recently, came across like a latter day Churchill as to the viability of the indian state.
I am least concerned with the blog or its origins, as my aim was to point out the RSS plan for the next 10 years.
I see this as a sideshow, background noise, low level. When the BJP comes to power, all sorts of outfits come crawling out of the woodwork pushing their own agendas and demanding their pound of flesh. They are appeased in the larger interests, up to a point. Throw them a bone here & there.
8 cities in India account for 46% of riot related deaths. These are cities with deep communal faultlines. Things spark off on their own or are instigated.
It is not a sideshow, when you have the ruling party engineering communal riots and conniving to eliminate the existence of religious communities in the country. This is sectarianism and fascism.
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