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Are American Values to Blame for the World's Chaos

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  • Are American Values to Blame for the World's Chaos

    Agree or disagree?

    I've been hearing this argument for years. What the author completely leaves out is that American public opinion has long favored that US aid, economically and militarily, work to instill democratic values and respect for human rights. The US (read CIA) has taken internal heat for working with dictators and repressive countries. Also, the author ignores all the instances where US insistence on respect for human rights and self-determination did pay dividends. Throughout much of the 20th Century there are examples--Japan, S. Korea, Germany... Still, I agree with the author to the extent that conditioning policy solely on instilling US values everywhere will lead to spectacular failures in the short term. I don't think one can judge the long-term effect of efforts to boost self-determination in years or even decades. It's a slow up and down process.


    Democracy, Freedom, and Apple Pie Aren't a Foreign Policy

    Democracy, Freedom, and Apple Pie Aren't a Foreign Policy
    We like to think our way of life is the best in the world. But trying to spread American values always backfires.

    BY Stephen M. Walt
    JULY 1, 2014


    What has gone wrong? Iraq has come unglued. ISIS just announced the founding of a new caliphate. The Afghan presidential election is contested and getting ugly. The nuclear talks with Iran are going slowly, even as opponents devise new ploys to derail them completely. Ukraine is a mess with a tentative cease-fire being blown apart. China continues to throw sharp elbows. Japan is getting martial again. And Britain is getting closer to leaving the European Union. I could go on, but you may not have enough antidepressants handy.

    So much for the "new world order" that President George H.W. Bush proclaimed in the heady days following the fall of the Berlin Wall. So much for the alleged demise of "power politics" once hailed by the likes of Bill Clinton and Thomas Friedman. The end of history? Not even Francis Fukuyama believes in that one anymore. The overall level of human violence may be in decline (though a single great-power war could derail that finding), but world politics seems to be spinning more out of control with each passing week.

    In the hyperpartisan world of contemporary U.S. politics, Democrats blame these present woes on George W. Bush, while Republicans trace them all to Barack Obama or (looking ahead) to Hillary Clinton. And both sides can find ample evidence for these politically motivated indictments.

    But the real blame lies elsewhere. All three post-Cold War presidents have made their fair share of errors, but there is a common taproot to many of their failings. That taproot has been the pervasive influence of liberal idealism in the conduct of U.S. foreign policy, an influence that crosses party lines and unites Democratic liberal internationalists with Republican neoconservatives. The desire to extend liberalism into Eastern Europe lay behind NATO expansion, and it is a big reason that so-called liberal hawks jumped on the neocon bandwagon in Iraq. It explains why the United States tried to export democracy to Afghanistan and throughout the Middle East, instead of focusing laser-like on al Qaeda after the 9/11 attacks. It was the foundation of Bill Clinton's strategy of "engagement and enlargement," George W. Bush's "liberty doctrine," and Barack Obama's initial embrace of the Arab Spring and decision to intervene in Libya. It is, in short, the central thread in the complex tapestry of recent U.S. foreign policy.

    Liberalism rests on a clear set of moral and political desiderata. It places the individual at the center of political life and sees each human being as possessing certain inalienable rights. Liberals rightly emphasize individual liberty and are wary of unchecked power, and they believe that these principles apply to all human beings. Accordingly, liberals believe democracy is the best form of government and favor the rule of law, freedom of expression, and market economies. They also believe -- with some validity -- that most human beings would be better off if these practices were universal.

    Liberalism's central features are extremely appealing, and I for one am deeply grateful that I have lived virtually all of my life in (mostly) liberal America. But the moral appeal of these basic liberal principles does not mean that they are a sound guide for the conduct of foreign policy. In fact, the past two decades suggest that basing a great power's foreign policy primarily on liberal ideals is mostly a recipe for costly failures.

    The central problem is that liberalism does not tell us how to translate its moral absolutes into clear, effective strategies for bringing them about.

    The central problem is that liberalism does not tell us how to translate its moral absolutes into clear, effective strategies for bringing them about. Liberalism identifies a set of moral objectives -- a blueprint that all societies are supposed to follow -- but says little about what a liberal state should do if some foreign country or leader refuses to "do the right thing."

    For starters, look at what happens whenever some foreign government acts in a decidedly illiberal fashion or objects to U.S. or Western efforts to expand human rights, democracy, or any other cherished liberal principle. The nearly automatic reaction is for U.S. leaders to sputter in rage and then denounce that foreign leader as reactionary and misguided at best, or as the embodiment of evil at worst.

    In recent months, for example, Secretary of State John Kerry responded to Russia's seizure of Crimea by denouncing Russian President Vladimir Putin as trapped in "19th-century" rules. Similarly, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush denounced their various authoritarian adversaries (Slobodan Milosevic, Ali Khamenei, Kim Jong Il, Muammar al-Qaddafi, etc.) in the harshest terms. Unfortunately, calling someone a part of the "axis of evil" is not a policy, and pointing out that a foreign leader is a despicable tyrant doesn't change anything, especially when the accusation is accurate. Needless to say, real tyrants are not sensitive to this sort of criticism.

    When moral condemnation fails -- as it invariably does -- liberalism offers no good alternatives. Economic sanctions are a weak tool and usually end up strengthening authoritarian rulers rather than undermining them. Moreover, they inflict vast suffering on entire populations while leaving the ruling elite largely unscathed, which ought to give anyone who is concerned with the condition of actual human beings at least a moment's pause. Even when they do succeed -- as one might argue occurred in the case of apartheid-era South Africa -- it takes decades.

    Trying to spread liberal ideals at the point of a gun, however, is even worse. As we have seen in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and many other places, violent "regime change" by definition means destroying existing political and social institutions. Unfortunately, the collapse of the old order and the subsequent foreign occupation make it even less likely that an effective democracy will emerge. The resulting anarchy empowers those with a taste and a talent for violence, and it forces local populations to turn to ancient sources of local identity (such as tribes, clans, or religious sects) for protection. It is hard to think of a better way to destroy the tolerance and individualism that is central to liberal philosophy.

    Moreover, liberal governments seeking to wage idealistic crusades often end up lying to their own people in order to sustain popular support, and they have to maintain large and secretive national security apparatuses as well. Paradoxically, the more a liberal society tries to spread its creed to others, the more likely it is to compromise those values back home. One need only look at the evolution of U.S. politics over the past 20 years to see that tendency in spades.

    Finally, because most liberals are convinced that their cherished beliefs are beyond debate, they fail to recognize that non-liberal societies may not welcome these wonderful gifts from abroad. On the contrary, the more the well-meaning foreign interference overseas -- whether through military occupation, sanctions, or even NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy -- the greater the allergic reaction the interference is likely to generate. Foreign dictators will heighten repression, and populations that are supposed to greet their liberators with flowers will offer up IEDs instead. Massive state-building projects end up distorting local economies and fueling corruption, especially when the idealistic liberal occupiers have no idea how the local society works.

    The conclusion is obvious. The United States and other liberal states would do a much better job of promoting their most cherished political values if they concentrated on perfecting these practices at home instead of trying to export them abroad. If Western societies are prosperous, just, and competent, and live up to their professed ideals, people in other societies will want to emulate some or all of these practices, suitably adapted to local conditions.

    In some countries, this process may occur rapidly, in others only after difficult struggles, and in a few places not for many decades. This fact may be regrettable, but is also realistic. Trying to speed up a process that took centuries in the West, as the United States has been trying to do since 1992, is more likely to retard the advance of liberal values than it is to advance them.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  • #2
    You can't install democracy, because democracy is not only a set of values and principles, democracy is more than anything else an-experience. Time in other words. Time that it takes to gain that kind of experience which than leads to the formation of values and principles up on which democracy can be formed and function. So since you can't transport time, you can't take 15 minutes of American time and replace 15 minutes of time in some other part of the world, the term and practice of installing democracy is an oxymoron by default.

    And by the way, it is easy for US representatives and intelligentsia to talk about freedom and rights, when they are backed with like 20 carrier battle groups, nuclear arsenal and millions of soldiers that ensure stability of US as a system and as an order.
    Last edited by Versus; 02 Jul 14,, 21:35.

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    • #3
      Versus still remembers how democracy was perceived for anarchy around here. Bulgaria is a case worth for observation. Even today, they are not half way there, tho they entered NATO and EU, so at least on paper they made it.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
        Versus still remembers how democracy was perceived for anarchy around here. Bulgaria is a case worth for observation. Even today, they are not half way there, tho they entered NATO and EU, so at least on paper they made it.
        In order for us to reach US standards of democracy and human rights, we will at least need 10 squadrons of strategic bombers, 1000 nuclear warheads, 500 icbm's, army of 4 million men, airforce with like 5000 raptor like airplanes and at least five nuclear carriers. Than we can be calm and reasonable and rational...

        And by the way, when the idea, that the intelligence service is responsible for spreading democracy, became accepted as normal? As far as I know, the job of clandestine community is to gather intelligence and do black ops that are good for their country. Spreading democracy as a form black ops is, to be polite, strange to me.
        Last edited by Versus; 02 Jul 14,, 21:52.

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        • #5
          You have high hopes. That much weaponry situated on the Balkans would mean one thing - the world is doomed.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            You have high hopes. That much weaponry situated on the Balkans would mean one thing - the world is doomed.
            Just kidding, Doc. Chances are that we would most likely blow us first. The love towards pyrotechnics is endless here, especially on Christmas.

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            • #7
              Now seriously, when this subject of liberalism starts I always have a picture of some Ivy league student, whom never lifted anything heavier than a sliver spoon, always had a nanny or butler, always had a driver until daddy bought a brand new Ferrari and gave him or her 10 platinum/premium Visa/Master Blaster cards. From this setting, two types of liberals emerge. Type one has a personality based on guilt complex, which again is a form of reverse narcissism and the type two has a personality that is based on mindless positivism which again is a form of expressive narcissism.
              Type one, feels the guilt, because he or she knows, instinctively that all that wealth and good life is a substitute for the lack of emotions that he or she didn't receive as a kid, but he or she is confused because the sheer feeling of good life is in the same time, source of unhappiness. So they are obsessed with trying to figure out why the daddy showered them with good life while in the same time he was stingy on emotions. From this duality, since the notion of self and thus self value is disturbed, due to the lack of feedback from parents, the guilt complex and the constant doubt arises. So in order to make life bearable and easier, they need to shed that feeling of unease that lurks in the depths of their personalities. So they need to create an alternate personality, that is based on complete denial of real personality, the one that is insecure, thus scared and, naturally, aggressive. So they became fierce and brave "world caretakers", that fight for ideals that go beyond (reason). That is how, the lack of daddy care, turns into their "global care". They go around the world, saving chimps, strained dolphins and baby seals and other animals (always followed by camera, of course), fight global warming, poverty,hunger,war, abuse etc. They help, they believe in it so hard and if the results are opposite, they became motivated even more, never asking a question-am I doing something wrong here? They can't ask that question, cause, as narcissists, they are perfect, always right, just and right. So it is always the world that is the problem, not them, world is bad because it opposes their good will.

              Type two, the hyper piper as I like to call them, is an full blown narcissistic persona and he likes it!Type two, the hyper piper as I like to call them, is an full blown narcissistic persona and he likes it! In order to uphold this image of a super awesome person, that is embodiment of right choices, intelligence and beauty, he feels obligated to reshape the world. HE will make it better, because only HE can do it. Cause he is special and he is special because the daddy gave him or her everything. Which makes him or her worthy and thus super able.

              It is worth to note, that both of these personalities, want to make a world more secure for THEM, by making the world more similar to the setting that is familiar to THEM. They actually hate diversity and individualism, the very values they are clamoring to support and that is the primary cause for the demise of their efforts and the mess that they leave behind their actions. Its like someone breaking into your house with gun and screaming, do you all feel good? You must feel god cause I am here and I will make you feel good if you are not feeling good. Problem is, that in order for this mindset to exist, the need must be created for it, so in some perverted way, this mindset creates chaos so that it can have a purpose to exist. Only than, their need for narcissistic supply is secured and with it, the life of their narcissistic personality.
              Last edited by Versus; 02 Jul 14,, 23:06.

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              • #8
                We are talking from a POV of 'victims' of the democratization here.

                Unlike Japan and Germany or even Poland, over here the change of the system left us with very weak and corrupt governments without cashflow. The only thing the elected officials had at their disposal is robbery of the common goods in form of selling them for cheap. To get it even worse, the new owners were the same people who rolled the wealth and the system in the previous format and had no knowledge on how to swim in the new waters. On top of that the new generations couldn't really go out to see and feel the democracy first hand, so in essence it was that distorted picture of "democracy gives me rights to do what I want".

                Very soon all the love to Coke, Levi's, RnR and other cultural lollipops vanished and turned into desperation. Another problem is that the El Dorado we all hoped for in form of US/EU way of life drained since as soon as some sort of peace emerged, the Western focus went elsewhere leaving us to our own vices accompanied with some of the democratic ones, mingled with post-war trauma and no Marshall plan.

                In essence for the democracy to work you need a natural path of how situation unfolds, time and money. Skip one and you see generations lost in the process. If one wants to blame the US for this failure they must forget that we live in a fast moving world, where focus and interests shift with a rapid pace and that in such a situation the West still haven't devised a plan how their values would get 'installed' in the new system of the country. Another thing that people forget or mybe don't know is that it's all up to them - the people, which is the meaning of the democracy.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  We are talking from a POV of 'victims' of the democratization here.

                  Unlike Japan and Germany or even Poland, over here the change of the system left us with very weak and corrupt governments without cashflow. The only thing the elected officials had at their disposal is robbery of the common goods in form of selling them for cheap. To get it even worse, the new owners were the same people who rolled the wealth and the system in the previous format and had no knowledge on how to swim in the new waters. On top of that the new generations couldn't really go out to see and feel the democracy first hand, so in essence it was that distorted picture of "democracy gives me rights to do what I want".

                  Very soon all the love to Coke, Levi's, RnR and other cultural lollipops vanished and turned into desperation. Another problem is that the El Dorado we all hoped for in form of US/EU way of life drained since as soon as some sort of peace emerged, the Western focus went elsewhere leaving us to our own vices accompanied with some of the democratic ones, mingled with post-war trauma and no Marshall plan.

                  In essence for the democracy to work you need a natural path of how situation unfolds, time and money. Skip one and you see generations lost in the process. If one wants to blame the US for this failure they must forget that we live in a fast moving world, where focus and interests shift with a rapid pace and that in such a situation the West still haven't devised a plan how their values would get 'installed' in the new system of the country. Another thing that people forget or mybe don't know is that it's all up to them - the people, which is the meaning of the democracy.
                  Typo, although Samantha is my favorite liberal hawkie.
                  Well yea, the democracy functions only if you have parties that understand and share those values. The perception of freedom and the rights that come out of that sense are not universal, yet very very different.
                  This, hm, "problem" is not exclusively an US problem. We did the same mistake, before US started exporting its way of life.
                  Last edited by Versus; 02 Jul 14,, 23:18.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    We are talking from a POV of 'victims' of the democratization here.

                    Unlike Japan and Germany or even Poland,
                    The Poles didn't have much to work with. When the Govt decided to sell off state businesses to generate cash flow and investor interest - they discovered that they were more or less worthless. Archaic equipment and a shocking culture of ambivalence - people were almost in a form of co-dependancy.

                    I was contracting at the time in germany and we went over to see what bargains we could buy - there were basically none - anything bought came with a cultural liability of indifference towards doing business a "new way"

                    within 10 years they had turned it around - we were getting work sub contracted by polish companies and knew that they would deliver quality on time and with almost no returns. - they were making compound armour and ballistic laminates. They had basically jumped a generation in 10 years
                    Linkeden:
                    http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                    http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                      The Poles didn't have much to work with. When the Govt decided to sell off state businesses to generate cash flow and investor interest - they discovered that they were more or less worthless. Archaic equipment and a shocking culture of ambivalence - people were almost in a form of co-dependancy.

                      I was contracting at the time in germany and we went over to see what bargains we could buy - there were basically none - anything bought came with a cultural liability of indifference towards doing business a "new way"

                      within 10 years they had turned it around - we were getting work sub contracted by polish companies and knew that they would deliver quality on time and with almost no returns. - they were making compound armour and ballistic laminates. They had basically jumped a generation in 10 years
                      We were all in the same or similar situation in our post-Socialism days. Poland got fund mainly because there was a political will and also got a fast political change, unlike us. Slovenia for instance still haven't finished the process of denationalization, not to mention they figured out ways how to multiply the money they were receiving (it's a long topic - the Slovene ingenuity wrt the economy).
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                        Agree or disagree?
                        It would seem the problem is with implementation and not necessarily the idea itself.

                        The central problem is that liberalism does not tell us how to translate its moral absolutes into clear, effective strategies for bringing them about.
                        Works in some countries and is slower to catch on in others.

                        We're in a environment now where an important segment of the world is liberal. Wars were fought to establish that foundation. It's much harder today to buck the trend than earlier.

                        There is no cold war anymore. Where interests trumped values for stability.

                        The picture has inverted. Resistance to liberalise is considered regressive or tantamount to threatening stability.

                        Update: the question of agree or disagree is moot. Are we to believe that an economy that is taking its time to recover coupled with over a decade of war weariness means things will change from now on. When the pattern of the US has been consistent ever since WW2 right up to Afghanistan & Iraq. No. And Americans themselves got to see this with Libya. Not a single american poster here supported that operation but were overruled in the end.

                        You mention Germany, Japan etc, but don't forget a lot of independence movements that started off and got a shot in the arm when it was clear the US was not going to support the erstwhile Euro colonial world order after the Suez crisis.

                        Self determination & democracy allows more stable regime change going forward for any country. It means a world with less chaos than not.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jul 14,, 08:17.

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                        • #13
                          Wasn't a T-34 recovered out of some marsh in Estonia, cleaned up and driven off? Seems I recall a video of the event.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Versus View Post
                            ...And by the way, when the idea, that the intelligence service is responsible for spreading democracy, became accepted as normal? As far as I know, the job of clandestine community is to gather intelligence and do black ops that are good for their country. Spreading democracy as a form black ops is, to be polite, strange to me.
                            Not if one is establishing a Fifth Column.

                            Now granted, that may be a means to an alternate goal and not the goal itself, but still, that could be one reason why such people would do so.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tamara View Post
                              Not if one is establishing a Fifth Column.

                              Now granted, that may be a means to an alternate goal and not the goal itself, but still, that could be one reason why such people would do so.
                              Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that now it is like 100 times worse than before and that there are no reasons to believe that it will be better in the future. We feel like we are in a death row since laser guided democracy was introduced upon us.

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