Pretty Intelligent Discussion on Whty we need CVNs & LHDs/LHAs

[gunnut]

My statement was somewhat different, not build CVE's but if push comes to shove, us Lxx as CVE's to supplement the CVNs. Say we get into some really heightened tensions with China. We can deploy what 4-5 carriers globally at any one time. Lxx with F-35's could maintain our presence in other areas or armed with ASW Helos supplement other assets in the hunt for Chinese subs

Ah....gotcha.

But then the question becomes how useful are those F-35s flying off the Lxx class ships? They don't have ski jumps nor catapults. The F-35Bs will have to take off vertically. I don't think the short deck gives them enough room to build up lift in the wings to take off with increased load. These F-35Bs will have minimal load or minimal range. As such, they will have minimal use for the types of operation we conduct.

[gunnut]

I've never particularly had a problem with that designation (which I'm sure will give the JMSDF great relief when they read this thread).

"Helicopter carrying Destroyer" or even "Helicopter Carrier" is entirely accurate. It doesn't have the capability to operate fixed-wing aircraft and neither does the Japanese MSDF even posses carrier-capable aircraft, nor do they plan to in the near-to-medium future.

It's a destroyer that is heavily optimized for rotary-wing operations. Nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting...it's a stretch, but I guess we really should characterize them as "destroyer leaders." They have the capacity to take a command staff aboard and operate enough helos for the entire flotilla of smaller escorts. They should work well with our flight 1 Burkes.

[desertswo]

Any ideas on why deck/side armor is omitted from supercarriers? I have three suspicions but I don’t really know if any or all of them are valid.

1. Supercarriers are very large and have lots of internal spaces that could potentially soak up damaging hits without resulting in a mission kill. Due to the size of the ship, any given missile that strikes it is less likely to hit something critical when compared to other surface combatants.

2. Armoring a ship the size of a Nimitz would be incredibly heavy. Adding armor plating to a 4.5 acre flight deck could potentially be too much top weight that would throw off the balance of the whole ship.

3. The primary defense of a Supercarrier is that it can fight adversaries without ever getting close to them. Aircraft armed with missiles can engage targets at very long distances without revealing the location of the carrier.

I don't believe any modern surface combatants have real armor to speak of. The name of the game is no longer "prevent damage by a hit", it's "don't get hit in the first place".

It is primarily cost and topside weight. Three inches of armor plate spread across several acres would cost a fortune, and complicate the desired righting moments for stability purposes.

One must keep in mind however that not having armor in what we think of in terms of battleships is not the same as saying the ship can't take a hit. As you indicated, multiple inner bottoms, surrounding areas of desired survivability with water and fuel tanks, as well as floodable voids, maze-like rabbit warrens throughout the ship, with water- and fume-tight doors and both installed and bulkhead mounted fire fighting equipment located nearly everywhere one looks helps to minimize battle damage. Yes, Kevlar is found in places, but Kevlar is not going to stop high speed missiles from penetrating the flight deck, etc. It will do just as it does when applied to soldiers in the field; help minimize casualties due to shrapnel, and other associated "missile hazards" associated with taking a hit.

As ace indicated, it's all about not taking a hit. If we do however, we are the best in the world at shipboard damage control. Look at all the hits USN ships have taken over the last 50 years, including those that were self-inflicted (e.g. Enterprise and Forrestal) AND DIDN'T SINK! That doesn't happen by accident, but is the result of training, technical competency, and at the end of the day, great leadership.

[TopHatter]

As ace indicated, it's all about not taking a hit. If we do however, we are the best in the world at shipboard damage control. Look at all the hits USN ships have taken over the last 50 years, including those that were self-inflicted (e.g. Enterprise and Forrestal) AND DIDN'T SINK! That doesn't happen by accident, but is the result of training, technical competency, and at the end of the day, great leadership.

It's especially impressive considering those carriers probably took far more "hits" than an actual enemy could accomplish in combat.

[desertswo]

It's especially impressive considering those carriers probably took far more "hits" than an actual enemy could accomplish in combat.

People probably get tired of hearing this, but I have some intimate knowledge regarding the damage that USS Cole took back in October of 2000 in Aden, Yemen. Clearly I was not there, but I was the battle watch commander for the Crisis Action Team (CAT) that the Joint Staff stood up in the aftermath of that tragedy, so I was seeing and hearing (from the CO himself on a couple of occasions), via the magic of satellite communications of all sorts, a lot of things the average person watching on CNN wasn't. A lot of credit has to go to the naval architects and the engineers and workmen that cobbled together the design of the Arleigh Burke-class DDG, but in my opinion, Cole lived because that CO and his crew willed her to live. She should have been sitting on the bottom, and they simply would not allow that to happen. They did some really outside the box things to work around battle damage, and even some things that might be called "risky" or "dangerous," but you sort of have to consider, "How much worse can it get if I cut a hole in the hull right here with an acetylene torch, while standing waist deep in a combination of seawater and fuel oil?" The reason for cutting the hole was that the few working portable pumps they had weren't capable of overcoming the discharge height that would have been incurred had they simply run the discharge hose up several decks and then over the side. I thought it was a good idea and said so. The J-3, a naval officer who knew the answer but wanted to hear it from my lips anyway, asked what might go wrong. "Well, the ignite that fuel oil and incinerate themselves, but if you are asking me what I would do, that's what I would at least try." So they dumped a bunch of AFFF concentrate into the space in an effort to at least seal in some of the fumes and went to work, and within a few minutes they were pumping that space out, and several others after that. They broke about a bazillion OSHA safety regulations, but none of us figured any federal inspector was going to be checking on the job site any time soon.

Anyway, there were many examples of similar things over the next several days, and they saved a ship that shouldn't have been saved. Training, technical savvy, and great leadership on the deck plates. That's why Cole lived to fight another day. That CO should have been given the Navy Cross and promoted to Captain. Instead a bunch of turds in Congress ensured that his career would end, and all because he was saddled with the freaking Kobayashi Maru Scenario brought to life. No matter what he did, he was screwed, and people died because someone at the CENTCOM level wanted to show the freaking flag. Idiots.