Ukraine: After the May 25 Election

[snapper]

An approximate map, as the situation is fluid, of the position yesterday

[tankie]

One more video from Chernovtsy.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ,again , wanker .

[Minskaya]

Tanks are crossing a movable pontoon bridge and one can see vehicles lined up that have already crossed. This seems to be the Siverskiy-Donets river in far southeastern Luhansk oblast (Krasnodon raion) probably somewhere near the village of Popivka. The white rectangles visible in the treeline across the river probably mark the border between Russia and Ukraine. The river here is entirely in Ukraine. From this point rural back-roads will take you westward to the town of Sukhodilsk and highway M04. Unconfirmed. Kyiv is seeking anyone familiar with this remote location. On 14 July, Ukraine reported that a An-26 was shot down in this area by a missile fired from Russia. On July 31, residents reported that a Russian military convoy of 50 vehicles passed through Sukhodilsk.

[snapper]

Kinda end the myth that this is a local uprising.

[Surreal McCoy]

Kinda end the myth that this is a local uprising.

How? Don't most rebels erect pontoon bridges to move their tanks and MLRS?

[tankie]

How? Don't most rebels erect pontoon bridges to move their tanks and MLRS?

Nope :pari: Armies advancing / retreating into strategical positions do ,

[Doktor]

Glad you asked me that. First, let me say governments on either side of the conflict will try to spin the news and issue statement to the press, attributable or on background designed to win hearts and minds. The facts they use differentiates them as reasonably accurate or inordinately inaccurate sources of news.

That said, the difference is in the quality of the fourth estate, the news outlets through which all this reaches the public. In the west, especially in the US, the media, or all news outlets combined, are all privately owned and operated, except a few government funded news outlets like Voice of America, Stars and Stripes, which are supposed to be editorial independent of the government according their Congressional mandate.

Some flavor to give you an idea where news originates in the US on major international and defense issues: In the US, there are large contingents of reporters assigned to the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department. The outlets they work for decide who will be assigned to these major news sources. These reporters actually occupy free space in those buildings and can even move about in them, although not so much in the White House. (That's how a lot of leaks are generated.) Each of these places have a press secretary or asst secretary of public affairs with large staffs who take queries from reporters and gather replies from the knowledgeable officials who work in the department.

I worked in the Pentagon press office for 8-9 years. Regarding the question you asked, I can tell you that a reply to a reporter's query had better be accurate, even if it is low on substance, because the reporter or journalist will fry your ass if they catch you making a mistake or telling them a outright lie. Reporters are propagandized all day long with minor press releases, most with good news and some with bad. Most of the good news never makes it beyond small specialized media outlets, like defense journals. The bad news gets more play. The big news gets a lot.

Now, when a major story hits, like Ukraine, things go into overdrive. The reporters rush around demanding interviews with principals and answers to all kinds of questions, some stupid, some good. They also flood public info officers lower down the chain with queries, usually for filler facts about aircraft capabilities and so on. As news floods in from all over the world, reporters seek confirmation or comment. Russian media is not ignored. The reporters will demand reactions to Russian news reports and official statement, as well as those from Ukraine and principal EU countries.

The government also prepares press releases with its take, it's spin. Often the press releases contain rehashes of US policy and old cliches about freedom, etc. But what the reporters want most
is new information and statements from the president or the Secty of Defense, or some other high official. They'll print what the official says because, true or not, it's news that he said it. That is where the media gets a lot of criticism; it's as if people believe the media agree with the official's statement, when all they are doing is reporting it. (Opinion pieces are different; they don't come from reporters, but from a special breed of media types called commentators, and you can argue with them all you want.)

Another trait of American journalists is their love of finding mistakes and false statements, and their willingness (and freedom) to report them. I've seen that up close and I know from my own experience that most of the replies to reporters' queries are carefully checked and blessed by their bosses not so much because they are afraid the reply will play badly, but because they're petrified of making a mistake that will come back to haunt them in the news.

Also, consider that if a US media outlet comes into possession of some particularly sensitive information the government doesn't want released to the public, a government bigwig has to go hat in hand to plead with the media outlet's publisher or editor not to release it or to wait for a time, and he has to make a convincing case. The publisher doesn't have to give in. Does that happen in Russia? I strongly doubt it. It's just another proof that the US news media is free to release just about anything it wants.

Freedom of the press in America is constitutionally protected. Any attempt by the government to interfere with it usually blows up in the government's face. Is the media manipulated in the US? Yes. There are some media outlets that can be manipulated, but the key is, not all of them can be. Are some media outlets more sympathetic to the government's position than others? Yes, but for each of them there are outlets hostile to the government and delight in exposing false statements.

So, to come full circle, the freedom that the western media possesses makes it a more reliable source of information on major stories than a country whose media outlets are tightly controlled by the government, like in Russia and Iran and many other repressive governments. On the local level, these governments don't interfere much with their media, but when a major story comes along that affects them or their allies, they move in and manage the news tightly.

The thing to remember is not to rely on one outlet where there is a free press, but to follow as many as you can. That will give you fairly accurate picture.

Hope that answers your question.

Thank you for the long and sincere answer.

My question was if there is difference in finding one party guilty based on some hard data instead of local patriotism and fate in own gov releases.

[sail4evr]

Thank you for the long and sincere answer.

My question was if there is difference in finding one party guilty based on some hard data instead of local patriotism and fate in own gov releases.

Of course there is. Hard data often goes contrary to patriotism and faith in government releases. Hard data is based upon fact as opposed to patriotism and faith in own government which are based on emotions and 2nd or 3rd hand data that has or may have been spun to suit their own needs.

[Doktor]

Sail,

Thing is my brain on vacation must have missed the hard data any side is innocent.

[JAD_333]

Tanks are crossing a movable pontoon bridge and one can see vehicles lined up that have already crossed. This seems to be the Siverskiy-Donets river in far southeastern Luhansk oblast (Krasnodon raion) probably somewhere near the village of Popivka. The white rectangles visible in the treeline across the river probably mark the border between Russia and Ukraine. The river here is entirely in Ukraine. From this point rural back-roads will take you westward to the town of Sukhodilsk and highway M04. Unconfirmed. Kyiv is seeking anyone familiar with this remote location. On 14 July, Ukraine reported that a An-26 was shot down in this area by a missile fired from Russia. On July 31, residents reported that a Russian military convoy of 50 vehicles passed through Sukhodilsk.

Where's the other end of the bridge?

[Chunder]

Where's the other end of the bridge?

'bridge' Could be being used as a lighter.... any reason as to why not? There are some water craft moving about in the background.
Lighter Aboard Ship (LASH) Ships

[S2]

JAD,

I'd guess it will motor to the other side or be towed if they've insufficient pontoon sections to span the entirety. They used to be very, very good at opposed crossing ops. This should be a piece of cake. Perfect target for an airstrike but SAM coverage from Russia would easily blanket this crossing site.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian Air Force isn't up running combat air patrols along the border and looking for a fight. My sense is they really don't care, aren't planning any invasion announcement and might be standing on the Dnieper before we've completed our debate on whether Russia has invaded or not. The only thing left missing at this point are coherent Russian combat forces belonging to somebody's order of battle template.

IMV the Ukrainian people and their government are now engaged in a full-fledged conventional war with Russia.

[JAD_333]

IMV the Ukrainian people and their government are now engaged in a full-fledged conventional war with Russia.

S2:

Could turn into a bacterial-like invasion, if you know what I mean. A unit here and unit there.

[Skywatcher]

I wonder where the U.S. training forces will be located?

DoD wants $19 million to train Ukrainians

The article says that only five Ukrainian companies will be trained, though that probably means we'll send over at least several hundred trainers.

[Albany Rifles]

I hear you, but don't you think a determined president and a determined Congress can pass special on-time legislation to bypass the hornet's nest? I believe it's call a private bill.

Sure....but good luck with that in 2014.

I give you the Immigration Bill clown show this week as proof.