Bloody outcome in Kiev, Feb.19, 2014

[Skywatcher]

^^^^ That is an ominous development.

The new chief is a Navy guy, Vice Admiral Yury Illyin (sp). A rather odd choice if you want to send in the tanks, but putting a navy guy in charge of a heavily Army centric military (as Mihais pointed out) could make it much harder for any coup to get off the ground.

[Minskaya]

You would rather the whole nation descends into chaos because nationalists start a bloody battle countrywide to impose the way they think rules and life should be practiced?

Cease ascribing to me positions that I do not endorse. I am Ukrainian-Jewish you idiot and understand far better than you the menace of über-nationalist organizations such as Svoboda and Right Sektor.

[Doktor]

Far be it for me to appreciate all the emotion going on here and over there. However, it seems to me that the only way two disparate groups are going to be happy is to split the country. I know there are those who hate such an idea but when two groups have such divided interests then what can you do? One can go the way of Yugoslavia where another two groups were destined not to get along after Tito or go the way of the Czech Republic and Slovenia.

Democracy is great but it just isn't for every country. When intrenched loyalties are split between tribes, split between religions, or split between east vs west I can't see the sides sitting down calmly and discussing what is best for the country rather than their group. I just can't see how Ukraine can go forward from this now since one side or the other will be pissed off at whoever is in charge. That is seriously pissed off.

You do realize that majority of the people in former Yugoslavia still think it was a mistake to dissolve?
Could be it is due to the harsh economical reality that followed the mess of the '90s, but that's how the people feel.

Looking from this perspective, the solution was rather simple, but there was a group who was not ready to lose much of the centralized power.

Hope the Ukrainians wont have second thoughts after 20 years about what they could do different.

[Minskaya]

Apparently, a temporary truce has been agreed to in Kyiv. Maidan remains in the hands of the opposition. The opposition also controls L'viv, Lutsk, Ivano-Frankivsk, Uzhgorod, Chernivtsi, and Rivne. Every Ukrainian has seen the footage of the young woman shot in the head. Unrest is spreading. Police in many major cities have said they will not obey criminal orders to disburse protesters with violence.

The armed forces of Ukraine cannot legally be used domestically unless Yanukovych declares a state of emergency. I believe he is loathe to involve the military due to the very real possibility of armed conscripts joining the opposition.

The PMs of many European nations are reportedly on their way to Kyiv to meet with (confront) Yanukovych. The situation is fluid and tenuous.

[Doktor]

Police in many major cities have said they will not obey criminal orders to disburse protesters with violence.

Yes, because trowing Molotovs at the police is totally viable democratic option.

It's not as black and white as it is tried to be painted.

[Minskaya]

Yes, because trowing Molotovs at the police is totally viable democratic option.

It's not as black and white as it is tried to be painted.

I'll say it as plainly to you as I did to cyppok. I do not agree with or condone the violence perpetrated by either side. A peaceful political solution is the only viable way forward.

[Minskaya]

The new chief is a Navy guy, Vice Admiral Yury Illyin (sp). A rather odd choice if you want to send in the tanks, but putting a navy guy in charge of a heavily Army centric military (as Mihais pointed out) could make it much harder for any coup to get off the ground.

It is of note that Yanukovych dismissed Volodymyr Zamana (the Army Chief of Staff) after Zamana said that the military would institute 'anti-terror' operations.

[Doktor]

I'll say it as plainly to you as I did to cyppok. I do not agree with or condone the violence perpetrated by either side. A peaceful political solution is the only viable way forward.

I don't have a horse in this run. I only wish the Ukrainians work out a solution that will fit their interests.

With regards to the violence, it is plain idiotic to charge the police with stones, bricks, pipes, Molotovs (see the progress?) and to just expect the police to retreat and never return. In my view the spread of violence is on the opposition's back and they should be held responsible for escalating the situation. The police was pretty much restrained at the beginning.

[Minskaya]

The Kyiv truce has fallen apart. Government forces have attacked again with at least eleven protester fatalities. According to ABC News producer Bruno Roeber, security forces fired live ammunition at protesters.

ABC News - Shots Ring Out in Kiev as Deadly Fighting Resumes

[cyppok]

The Kyiv truce has fallen apart. Government forces have attacked again with at least eleven protester fatalities. According to ABC News producer Bruno Roeber, security forces fired live ammunition at protesters.

ABC News - Shots Ring Out in Kiev as Deadly Fighting Resumes

The faster the gov't gains control the less damage, and less blood is spilled longer term.

In order to improve a way of life and get rid of corruption, you start at the local level and create interacting networks that push politicians that reform instead of perform.

Everyone in opposition is just as corrupt if not more so than the people in gov't, that is the reality. In fact I could argue that because Yanukovich at least came through on the language pledge they are less corrupt in relation of campaign promises. Because betraying half of your constituency is not the same as betraying all of it in the EU/FTA case.

[Minskaya]

Because betraying half of your constituency is not the same as betraying all of it in the EU/FTA case.

Your Saint Yanukovych has just violated a truce and at least eleven more people are now dead. Initial reports say all of the dead sustained head wounds. Clearly, shoot to kill.

[Mihais]

Yes, because trowing Molotovs at the police is totally viable democratic option.

It's not as black and white as it is tried to be painted.

Violence solves problems.You don't get much attention otherwise.The trick is not to start shooting.

The thing goes this way.Violence on part of the protesters,be it non-lethal or otherwise is always under surveillance.The place is crawling with operatives from the SBU,the police and my bet is even army recon is on scene.To the Ukrainians,add the Russians.Spetsnaz and GRU operatives likely are numbered in thousands.Not in the crowd,but on scene.

The shooting there can be divided in 2 categories:
-mere idiots,that are identified already,but in the meantime they serve a purpose
-provocateurs

You don't provoke anyone for no reason,and that can only be more violence.More violence is not a purpose in itself in this case,but a justification,ultimately,for a Russian intervention.As Minnie said,the army can't be trusted.Heck they can't be trusted to guard their depots,let alone move in.

I don't know what the Americans promised the opposition leaders.But we can observe,somehow,the Russian response to that.They are going for partition.They may try in the meantime repression,because they have nothing to lose and all Ukraine to gain if it somehow works.

The EU also told Yanukovich to fvck off,essentialy.Whatever they'll say in the meeting is likely the usual BS.I doubt much will result from the talks.

This burning of bridges on EU part is nothing but their usual shortsightedness.

[Doktor]

Violence solves problems.You don't get much attention otherwise.The trick is not to start shooting.

So, if you set someone ablaze it's all good?

The thing goes this way.Violence on part of the protesters,be it non-lethal or otherwise is always under surveillance.The place is crawling with operatives from the SBU,the police and my bet is even army recon is on scene.To the Ukrainians,add the Russians.Spetsnaz and GRU operatives likely are numbered in thousands.Not in the crowd,but on scene.

Them being observed doesn't mean they act rationally. Go to YT, the first video on Ukraine's protests will prove me right.

The shooting there can be divided in 2 categories:
-mere idiots,that are identified already,but in the meantime they serve a purpose
-provocateurs

Idiots who serve what purpose?
Provocateurs provoking whom?

You don't provoke anyone for no reason,and that can only be more violence.More violence is not a purpose in itself in this case,but a justification,ultimately,for a Russian intervention.As Minnie said,the army can't be trusted.Heck they can't be trusted to guard their depots,let alone move in.

Interesting observation. Wonder how the Russian troops will fare in the west. As for the trust in the UA's army we all said it, but there are voices to get them out of the barracks. Some coming from Russia.

I don't know what the Americans promised the opposition leaders.But we can observe,somehow,the Russian response to that.They are going for partition.They may try in the meantime repression,because they have nothing to lose and all Ukraine to gain if it somehow works.

If the Russians go full in like you suggest, I'd guess they'd want the whole prey.

The EU also told Yanukovich to fvck off,essentialy.Whatever they'll say in the meeting is likely the usual BS.I doubt much will result from the talks.

This burning of bridges on EU part is nothing but their usual shortsightedness.

The Americans stole the show from them. We have seen it so many times.

[cyppok]

Your Saint Yanukovych has just violated a truce and at least eleven more people are now dead. Initial reports say all of the dead sustained head wounds. Clearly, shoot to kill.

its actually 43 now.

Violence begets Violence.
Lots of heroes hiding behind peaceful protestors using them as human shields to attack gov't officials, sooner or later people begin to defend themselves and innocent blood is shed. Whom is more culpable?

[Mihais]

So, if you set someone ablaze it's all good?


Them being observed doesn't mean they act rationally. Go to YT, the first video on Ukraine's protests will prove me right.


Idiots who serve what purpose?
Provocateurs provoking whom?


Interesting observation. Wonder how the Russian troops will fare in the west. As for the trust in the UA's army we all said it, but there are voices to get them out of the barracks. Some coming from Russia.


If the Russians go full in like you suggest, I'd guess they'd want the whole prey.


The Americans stole the show from them. We have seen it so many times.

Bro,the recipe is you need violence to justify escalation.In 1989 the purpose of the shooting was to create a certain number of victims to give the impression of chaos,lost control etc...Big Brother then rides in,to bring peace and tranquillity .And never leaves after that.Iliescu &Co were busy requesting the help of the Big Brother.On the Eastern border some Soviet units were actually trying to enter the country.The Army saved the day by standing firm.Militarily there was no way to win against the Soviets under THOSE circumstances.But they weren't coming for a war either.They just wanted to keep their sphere.Mostly,they failed, because they collapsed and there was no way for the local politruks to keep the commie ways as they were and live.

This Ukrainian affair looks more and more like our own.At least we can recognize the modus operandi.There are some differences,because no circumstances are identical.But we've seen this movie.

Now,whose more justified,only God knows.In a wider sense,this is a Russian(Great and Little)internal affair.We know there will be nothing good for them either with the EU or the Euro-Asiatic Union.But the folks there don't know yet.They live on dreams and hopes.I don't mock them in any way,I'll feel the same if I were there.From outside,it looks to me only those wishing a neutrality after it's over,are right.And they're a minority.