Ahead of 1971 war, Nixon branded his envoy to India as traitor

[Oracle]

Oracle,

I am truly sorry for any suffering your family may have endured during the conflict in East Pakistan - I have never denied that atrocities occurred (at the hands of some units of the PA), but as you yourself point out, these were the 'circumstances' of the time. The Mukti Bahini itself engaged in numerous atrocities of her own, and each side can point to the other as being the cause of a 'collapse in discipline' given the horrors of war. However, atrocities committed during a conflict do not automatically translate into 'genocide', as the definitions posted by Zraver and myself indicate.

AM,

It's alright. Not your fault. As about the rest of your post, you probably could be correct. However, 3+ million deaths is not something that can be whisked away. The world sees it as genocide. If your stance is otherwise it's entirely your prerogative, of which I am fine with.

[Blademaster]

AM,

It's alright. Not your fault. As about the rest of your post, you probably could be correct. However, 3+ million deaths is not something that can be whisked away. The world sees it as genocide. If your stance is otherwise it's entirely your prerogative, of which I am fine with.

He is a genocide denier. Why are you excusing him?

[Agnostic Muslim]

As an example of some of the discrepancies in the 'popular narrative' regarding the casualties of the East Pakistan conflict:
....
The MCA’s Report:
The MCAs whom Mujib personally assigned to the task of finding the casualty figures of their respective districts apparently went ahead with their task. With the help of their local district, subdivision, thana, and union Awami League party and governmental machineries, the MCAs concerned begun collating the ground level known casualty figures.

As has already been mentioned, for the district of Noakhali, one of the worst war affected districts of Bangladesh, Abdul Muhaimin could gather together a total of less than seven and. a half thousand reported losses of life. These included Razakars who fought to save Pakistan and were mercilessly killed by the armed Mukti Bahinis mainly after the surrender of the Pakistan Army on 16 December 1971. Even taking Noakhali as a representative of all the other 19 districts of Bangladesh, some of which hardly saw any action, the overall loss of life could not have been computed beyond one hundred and twenty-five thousand. [1]

Apparently, Abdul Muhaimin was not alone in coming up with such an unexpectedly disappointing casualty figure. A few others also came up with such unwelcome truths about the loss of life, property and honour. It has been said that once the MCAs concerned started reporting their preliminary findings to Mujib, the Bangladesh Prime Minister lost his trust in the ability of his Constituent Assembly colleagues to provide him with the expected ‘proof of Pakistan Army's genocide’. Being disappointed at their inefficiency, he then formed the 12-member strong Inquiry Committee under Abdur Rahim. [2]

4.2. The Inquiry Committee Report:
The Inquiry Committee seemed to have also failed Mujib in giving him the kind of truth he was after. The Government of Bangladesh never said a word about officially receiving the report, which was, as per as the original Gazette notification, due on or before 30 April 1972 or what happened to the Inquiry Committee's work.

On 6 June 1972, William Drummond reported:

"Since the third week of March, when the Inspector General's office in the Bangladesh Home Ministry began its field investigations, there have been about 2,000 complaints from citizens about deaths at the hands of the Pakistan Army have been received." [3]

Later, sources in Bangladesh reported that the draft report showed an overall casualty figure of 56,743. When a copy of this draft report was shown to the Prime Minister,

"he lost his temper and threw it on the floor, saying in angry voice 'I have declared three million dead, and your report could not come up with three score thousand! What report you have prepared? Keep your report to yourself. What I have said once, shall prevail." [4]

4.3. The Claim for Compensation:
Seemingly, the claim for compensation from the families of the war victims also did not bring much joy for Mujib and his Government. As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure at the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants did not exceed three hundred thousand. But, according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of Finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that,

"Only 72,000 claims were received. Of them relatives of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from the Razakars, within those 72,000 applications." [5]

Whatever be the actual figure, the 'victims' whose relatives were compensated might not be all victims of the Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist [6], died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation, also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides, there were also many false claimants.

..........

Behind the Myth of 3 million - Chapter - IV: The Truth that Mujib Suppressed

[Agnostic Muslim]

He is a genocide denier. Why are you excusing him?

Why shouldn't I question the veracity of claims regarding casualties that lack supporting evidence?

[Oracle]

All of the claims made above have been challenged, and lack credible evidence supporting them. The figure of '3 million killed' is ludicrous, as are the figures of 'women raped', and various historians have argued against the prevailing propaganda/narrative presented in the links above.

Again, atrocities (even if numerous) do not establish 'genocide'. At best one could argue that 'war crimes' were committed by the individuals involved (in the PA, Razakars and Mukti Bahini), but genocide cannot be established merely by narrating horrible accounts of atrocities.

AM, the claim is from reputed sources. My claim is 3+million, could go as high as 3.5-4 million, the reasons being starvation, displacement and diseases. I cannot and will not agree with whatever you throw at me. Do you have any sources for your claim, apart from a Pakistani perspective. Let's see that POV, too.

[anil]

Oracle, I'm familiar with tribal/political identities eg, mizo, kuki, meitei etc, as well as their ethnic identities, ie, chin, tai, mon-khmer, naga, tibetans, burmese etc

Actually, I've been following north east identity politics for a long time, particularly the hill tribes, their relationship with other hill tribes and the valley people.

If you have noticed, lemontree too has been following a similar warfare based on the tribal hills and the valley people(civilisation) in the af-pak region In both cases, the hills oppose the valleys attempt to bring them into civilisation by exercising autonomy. In both cases, the hills are occupied by tribes that have been victims of ancient genocide. They have escaped genocide and gone up into the hills for refuge, the hills act as a type of fortification. The question is, how do you bring them down?

[Oracle]

As an example of some of the discrepancies in the 'popular narrative' regarding the casualties of the East Pakistan conflict:
....
The MCA’s Report:
The MCAs whom Mujib personally assigned to the task of finding the casualty figures of their respective districts apparently went ahead with their task. With the help of their local district, subdivision, thana, and union Awami League party and governmental machineries, the MCAs concerned begun collating the ground level known casualty figures.

As has already been mentioned, for the district of Noakhali, one of the worst war affected districts of Bangladesh, Abdul Muhaimin could gather together a total of less than seven and. a half thousand reported losses of life. These included Razakars who fought to save Pakistan and were mercilessly killed by the armed Mukti Bahinis mainly after the surrender of the Pakistan Army on 16 December 1971. Even taking Noakhali as a representative of all the other 19 districts of Bangladesh, some of which hardly saw any action, the overall loss of life could not have been computed beyond one hundred and twenty-five thousand. [1]

Apparently, Abdul Muhaimin was not alone in coming up with such an unexpectedly disappointing casualty figure. A few others also came up with such unwelcome truths about the loss of life, property and honour. It has been said that once the MCAs concerned started reporting their preliminary findings to Mujib, the Bangladesh Prime Minister lost his trust in the ability of his Constituent Assembly colleagues to provide him with the expected ‘proof of Pakistan Army's genocide’. Being disappointed at their inefficiency, he then formed the 12-member strong Inquiry Committee under Abdur Rahim. [2]

4.2. The Inquiry Committee Report:
The Inquiry Committee seemed to have also failed Mujib in giving him the kind of truth he was after. The Government of Bangladesh never said a word about officially receiving the report, which was, as per as the original Gazette notification, due on or before 30 April 1972 or what happened to the Inquiry Committee's work.

On 6 June 1972, William Drummond reported:

"Since the third week of March, when the Inspector General's office in the Bangladesh Home Ministry began its field investigations, there have been about 2,000 complaints from citizens about deaths at the hands of the Pakistan Army have been received." [3]

Later, sources in Bangladesh reported that the draft report showed an overall casualty figure of 56,743. When a copy of this draft report was shown to the Prime Minister,

"he lost his temper and threw it on the floor, saying in angry voice 'I have declared three million dead, and your report could not come up with three score thousand! What report you have prepared? Keep your report to yourself. What I have said once, shall prevail." [4]

4.3. The Claim for Compensation:
Seemingly, the claim for compensation from the families of the war victims also did not bring much joy for Mujib and his Government. As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure at the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants did not exceed three hundred thousand. But, according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of Finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that,

"Only 72,000 claims were received. Of them relatives of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from the Razakars, within those 72,000 applications." [5]

Whatever be the actual figure, the 'victims' whose relatives were compensated might not be all victims of the Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist [6], died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation, also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides, there were also many false claimants.

..........

Behind the Myth of 3 million - Chapter - IV: The Truth that Mujib Suppressed

That site and it's contents is your rebuttal. Honestly? :wors: Try harder, if that doesn't work, be smarter.

It's got a pathetic design, poorly coded by an average IQ'd Rashed Kamal from London (very poor HTML, JavaScript & CSS skills). A one man story, which AM btw, is called propaganda.

I can come up with a better site in 2 hours about genocide the PA committed in Mars, and suppressed by Zia-Ul-Haq.

Why shouldn't I question the veracity of claims regarding casualties that lack supporting evidence?

I am not a magician. I did not create the 3 million figure out of thin air. Please check the links in post # 59 again.

[Oracle]

He is a genocide denier. Why are you excusing him?

Not really excusing him. :)

[Oracle]

Oracle, I'm familiar with tribal/political identities eg, mizo, kuki, meitei etc, as well as their ethnic identities, ie, chin, tai, mon-khmer, naga, tibetans, burmese etc

Actually, I've been following north east identity politics for a long time, particularly the hill tribes, their relationship with other hill tribes and the valley people.

If you have noticed, lemontree too has been following a similar warfare based on the tribal hills and the valley people(civilisation) in the af-pak region In both cases, the hills oppose the valleys attempt to bring them into civilisation by exercising autonomy. In both cases, the hills are occupied by tribes that have been victims of ancient genocide. They have escaped genocide and gone up into the hills for refuge, the hills act as a type of fortification. The question is, how do you bring them down?

Anil,

What Sir Lemontree has talked about doesn't fit into the context of NE India and it's various ethnicities. You'd be surprised that the majority among those people are atleast 10th pass. There are zero to little valleys (flatland) in NE, however I do understand your point. Interesting point you have raised, and this warrants a different thread. If you do create one, let me know.

[Agnostic Muslim]

That site and it's contents is your rebuttal. Honestly? :wors: Try harder, if that doesn't work, be smarter.

It's got a pathetic design, poorly coded by an average IQ'd Rashed Kamal from London (very poor HTML, JavaScript & CSS skills). A one man story, which AM btw, is called propaganda.

I can come up with a better site in 2 hours about genocide the PA committed in Mars, and suppressed by Zia-Ul-Haq.

I am not a magician. I did not create the 3 million figure out of thin air. Please check the links in post # 59 again.

The rebuttal is not based on the 'design of the site', it is based on the arguments made (highlighting the lack of evidence supporting the 3 million dead and raped claims) and the references included to support them.

[Agnostic Muslim]

This tells me more about you than we absolutely need to know

"Supposed to be killed"?? Not even a sembalnce of trial, judgement or rehabilitation back to society? No wonder they were glad to be rid of your lot

But aren't you yourself cheering the same 'massacre of alleged terrorists without even a semblance of trial, judgement or rehabilitation back to society' in the case of US drone strikes in FATA?

[Oracle]

The rebuttal is not based on the 'design of the site', it is based on the arguments made (highlighting the lack of evidence supporting the 3 million dead and raped claims) and the references included to support them.

Lol.

Okay, let me make it crystal clear. That site is perhaps owned by a Pakistani troll and a genocide denier. One single glance and I can tell professional sites, with integrity.

I gave you credible links, I will appreciate the same in return. Thank you.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Lol.

Okay, let me make it crystal clear. That site is perhaps owned by a Pakistani troll and a genocide denier. One single glance and I can tell professional sites, with integrity.

I gave you credible links, I will appreciate the same in return. Thank you.

'Links' by themselves mean nothing - it is the arguments contained in the 'links' and references provided to support those arguments that matter. The links you provided are largely composed of the regurgitated propaganda that has become the prevailing narrative. I provided you an excerpt from the site I linked to that made rational arguments and provided references to back them up. I would appreciate the same in return.

[Oracle]

'Links' by themselves mean nothing - it is the arguments contained in the 'links' and references provided to support those arguments that matter. The links you provided are largely composed of the regurgitated propaganda that has become the prevailing narrative. I provided you an excerpt from the site I linked to that made rational arguments and provided references to back them up. I would appreciate the same in return.

If links by themselves mean nothing, why are you shedding tears in the Drones thread by posting links? Arguments contained? Well, I or for that matter, take a poll in this very forum itself, what is meant by credible sources.

The links I provided, do not take into account Indian media, but sites that even you quote when it suits your purpose. However, the site you provided makes me laugh. Really? You have nothing to rebut my claim, so you are clutching onto straws. Show me something from sources, I and we all are aware of. I thought you'd come back strong. AM, play with the rules, or quit. It's not funny anymore.

[Agnostic Muslim]

If links by themselves mean nothing, why are you shedding tears in the Drones thread by posting links? Arguments contained?

Yes, each of the links I post in the drone strikes thread contains 'arguments', with critical points highlighted.

Well, I or for that matter, take a poll in this very forum itself, what is meant by credible sources.

References to committees formulated by Mujib to investigate the death tolls across East Pakistan and the conclusions they came up with constitutes a very credible empirical source.

The links I provided, do not take into account Indian media, but sites that even you quote when it suits your purpose. However, the site you provided makes me laugh. Really? You have nothing to rebut my claim, so you are clutching onto straws. Show me something from sources, I and we all are aware of. I thought you'd come back strong. AM, play with the rules, or quit. It's not funny anymore.

Again, merely posting links offers nothing. Please post excerpts from those links that make arguments supporting the death toll figures you prefer to believe and the facts/sources those arguments are based on.