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Economically you are probably correct. I've become Westernized and I just get tired of the endemic corruption in Ukraine and the Russian way of doing things.
The fanniest thing about you (and big part of Ukraine population) is irrational faith in magical solutions of problems brought by joining EU/Nato/whatever, despite the self-evident problems caused by the joining. Like "Call 111 and your warts will disappear in 30 seconds".
The fanniest thing about you (and big part of Ukraine population) is irrational faith in magical solutions of problems brought by joining EU/Nato/whatever, despite the self-evident problems caused by the joining. Like "Call 111 and your warts will disappear in 30 seconds".
As opposed to joining up with Russia? :slap:
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
They didn't have to join they could have went their own way. There was a cost they didn't want to pay it.
Its' like wanting two cakes but only being allowed to eat one.
They could still go their own way. Change in leadership and an EU-FTA agrement and presto as if by magic 30% to 50% of your GDP magically disappears in 3 to 5 years.
KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — About 50,000 demonstrators rallied in the center of Kiev on Sunday to demand that Ukraine's government reverse course and sign a landmark agreement with the European Union in defiance of Russia.
The protest was the biggest Ukraine has seen since the peaceful 2004 Orange Revolution, which overturned a fraudulent presidential election result and brought a Western-leaning government to power.
The rally was led by Ukraine's top opposition figures, who called for the protests to continue until President Viktor Yanukovych agreed to sign the free trade and political association deal with the EU at a summit on Friday.
As during the Orange Revolution, the opposition set up tents and encouraged supporters to spend the night. It was unclear how many would stay, with temperatures in the single digits Celsius (40s Fahrenheit) and rain forecast.
Sunday's demonstration was sparked by anger over the government's sudden move last week to pull out of the EU agreement and focus instead on trade ties with Russia, under strong pressure from Moscow.
After the rally at European Square, dozens of protesters clashed with police and pro-Russia activists near the government building, while another standoff took place outside Yanukovych's office. Police said they used tear gas at the government building after protesters threw a smoke bomb and refused to back off.
A larger crowd of several thousand headed for nearby Independence Square, planning to continue the protest. Meanwhile, Yanukovych supporters held their own rally on another Kiev square.
The pro-EU demonstrators, carrying giant Ukrainian and EU flags, chanted "Ukraine is Europe" and sang the national anthem as they marched toward European Square for the rally.
"Should we go toward Europe or toward Russia? It's a choice between the past and the future," opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a top ally of imprisoned former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, told the crowd.
In an emotional letter read to demonstrators by her daughter, Tymoshenko called on Ukrainians to continue demonstrating until Yanukovych signed the EU deal.
"Don't let him humiliate us all in this way," Eugenia Tymoshenko read out, shaking from cold and emotion. "It's our roadmap to a normal life."
The protesters responded with chants of "Freedom to Yulia" and "Down with the gang," a reference to Yanukovych and his government.
U.S. and EU officials expressed deep disappointment with Ukraine's decision, and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry canceled a visit to Kiev in early December.
EU Enlargement Commissioner Stefan Fuele, who has been lobbying for the deal for years, indicated Sunday that the deal is was still on the table. In a Twitter post written in English, Ukrainian and Russian, Fuele said, "Our commitment to modernization of Ukraine remains firm, door remains open, benefits 4 neighbours too, despite rhetoric."
One key EU demand for signing the deal is the release of Tymoshenko, whose imprisonment the West sees as politically driven. Yanukovych narrowly defeated Tymoshenko in the 2010 presidential election. He comes up for re-election in 2015, and Tymoshenko accuses him of keeping her behind bars to prevent her from running.
Yuri Lutsenko, a Tymoshenko ally who was recently released from jail on charges the West also called politically motivated, struck a more militant tone, asking the protesters whether they were ready to fight for their country's future.
"They declared war on us," Lutsenko told the crowd. "Are we ready to take on this challenge?"
After the Soviet Union fell two decades ago, Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote that "without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire." Those are still the stakes in the current struggle over Ukraine.
Last week the government in Kiev took a step back into Russia's orbit when it abandoned plans to sign an "association" trade treaty this Friday with the European Union and announced its intentions to get closer to a Moscow-led trade bloc. The decision by President Viktor Yanukovych followed months of bullying by Moscow. Russia's Vladimir Putin has slapped trade sanctions, cut energy supplies and threatened worse for Ukraine and other neighbors that seek closer relations with the West. Armenia caved this summer and joined the Russian customs union. Moldova and Georgia are moving ahead with their EU trade deals. With a population of 46 million and located along NATO's eastern frontier, Ukraine is the biggest prize. Since retaking the Russian presidency last year, Mr. Putin has turned even more hostile to the West and sought to recreate a Russian sphere of influence over the "near abroad." The Obama Administration's "reset" in relations with Moscow failed to anticipate or stop this.
Ukrainian officials say the Russian sanctions cost them $15 billion in lost trade and could run up to half a trillion by signing the EU deal. "Ukraine government suddenly bows deeply to the Kremlin," tweeted the veteran Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt in response to Thursday's reversal in Kiev. "Politics of brutal pressure evidently works."
Mr. Yanukovych contributed to this debacle. A thuggish pol from industrial eastern Ukraine, he tried to steal the 2004 presidential election, but a popular uprising stopped him. The Orange Revolution ensured free elections in 2010, which Mr. Yanukovych won, and he has since taken an authoritarian turn. Desperate to stem his falling support before elections in 2015, Mr. Yanukovych seized on Russia's offer of trade relief and cheap gas. He has also jailed his chief rival, the Orange leader Yulia Tymoshenko, whom the EU insisted be released for medical treatment in Germany. His allies in parliament last month changed the law that could disqualify, on a technicality, the reigning WBC heavyweight champion and parliamentary opposition leader Vitaly Klitschko from running for president. The polls say the popular Mr. Klitschko would win if the election were held today.
A good deal with Moscow for Mr. Yanukovych is bad for Ukrainians who have made clear they want to get closer to the friendlier, richer West. Tens of thousands have protested in the Kiev streets in the past few days against Mr. Yanukovych's decision. The country's business elites also oppose joining the Russian customs union, and for now Mr. Yanukovych has resisted Moscow's pressure to start talks. The EU trade deal remains on the table, as the EU emphasized in a Monday statement that also condemned "the external pressure" from Moscow on Ukraine. An independent Ukraine that leans West will lead to a more peaceful Europe and make it harder for Mr. Putin to rebuild a revanchist Russian empire.
It is clear from the tens of thousands of demonstrators in Kyiv and other cities that many feel exactly as I do. Ukraine is part of Europe and we belong in the European Union. Putin has succeeded in undermining this movement not because of the attractiveness of what Russia offers, but because of blatant political coercion and economic blackmail. Putin fully understands that his Eurasian Customs Union can neither thrive nor survive without Ukraine.
The reserves were transferred and spent during prior administration. The numbers are just pretend money that is still available due to credit being advanced.
Technically they are negative if you take into account all they money they borrowed and have to repay in the future years and other obligations (gas, memberships, interest)...
The choice was very simple join EU-FTA and loose access to the Russian market or keep the later and loose the former. Very straight forward. Russian market provides about half of the economic growth directly/indirectly EU very minor possible future marginal on top of that. Putin basically told them choose and they did because most of the non consumer good and financial oligarchs would have enterprises worth zero once they lost the Russian export market, along with hundreds of thousands of workers dependent on good flow and other aspects.
I was waiting for Ukraine to default 5 years ago but they advanced credit the EU did in the hopes of expanding market access into and through Ukraine. This bid now failed and the losses are cumulative.
My friend I must disagree. You do not succumb to blackmail no matter what - that should be ones principle. If you do give into blackmail it only becomes more expensive. I am no fan of the EU as most know but this isn't about the EU which will collapse anyway but freedom in Ukraine. As my family home is there now and Pater and brother currently there (South of Lvov/Lviv) I have watched but am don't really want to speak. Look up Stefan Fule - the EU Commissar who's supposed to be in charge of this - and you'll find that he was educated at Moscow State Institute of International Relations for 5 years (1981 - 1986). When things started going wrong they sent Aleksander Kwasniewski who is the most dubious former head of state alive and has a record of meeting KGB agents (he sued a newspaper that made allegations and was forced to admit that he had met Vladimir Alganov). Start looking them up and what the Moscow State Institute of International Relations is and you'll get some idea of who's working for who.
My friend I must disagree. You do not succumb to blackmail no matter what - that should be ones principle. If you do give into blackmail it only becomes more expensive. I am no fan of the EU as most know but this isn't about the EU which will collapse anyway but freedom in Ukraine. As my family home is there now and Pater and brother currently there (South of Lvov/Lviv) I have watched but am don't really want to speak. Look up Stefan Fule - the EU Commissar who's supposed to be in charge of this - and you'll find that he was educated at Moscow State Institute of International Relations for 5 years (1981 - 1986). When things started going wrong they sent Aleksander Kwasniewski who is the most dubious former head of state alive and has a record of meeting KGB agents (he sued a newspaper that made allegations and was forced to admit that he had met Vladimir Alganov). Start looking them up and what the Moscow State Institute of International Relations is and you'll get some idea of who's working for who.
Blackmail? This is trade negotiation on a global level. You do what is best for your country...
Rational expectation demand that if the benefits are negative from Ukraine-FTA to Russia, the latter should simply end it...
If you have a business that starts loosing money you end it.
The FTA with Russia assumed there would be no simple arbitrage through Ukraine to get tarriff differential from evading Russia's tarriffs with rest of the world. They are simply defending their markets. It is very rational.
Russia still has imperial interests over Ukraine and does not let Ukraine to join EU. For EU the line of Ukraine, Moldova and Romania is very important and accepted as entry gate to Europe same for Russia. So the rivalry between two power seems to last in the following years.
Russia has historical and imperial interests over Ukraine. It will not be easy for Ukraine to join to EU. Ukraine-Moldova and Romania line is vital region for both powers.
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