USAF Considering Retiring A-10. KC-10, and F-15C Fleets

[JA Boomer]

USAF Weighs Scrapping KC-10, A-10 Fleets | Defense News | defensenews.com

I think this is just a lot of posturing and a shot across the bow of a useless congress that needs to get their act together before severe cuts like this actually do become necessary.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, pretty much. The KC-10 fleet is pretty damn important and there's no way they're going anywhere soon.

[Doktor]

What about A-10? Who'd replace it?

[gf0012-aust]

What about A-10? Who'd replace it?

A-10 was always slated to be replaced by the JSF

It worth pointing out the CAS role is about capability - its not about a single platform

CAS has been conducted to danger close levels by B1's and B52's in afghanistan. ie they were able to deliver to danger close ranges because of the munitions carried.

[JA Boomer]

A-10 was always slated to be replaced by the JSF

It worth pointing out the CAS role is about capability - its not about a single platform

CAS has been conducted to danger close levels by B1's and B52's in afghanistan. ie they were able to deliver to danger close ranges because of the munitions carried.

It's also worth noting the A-10 wasn't scheduled to be retired until 2028 by the USAF under some plans, to be replaced by to F-35A. However, the A-10 unquestionably can do some things that no other current or planned platform can replace, most of them related to CAS and CSAR.

In fact all three of those platforms have capabilities that no other platform can replace, and that's the point. The USAF is looking to retire single-mission aircraft in favour of retaining more multi-role platforms.

Silly though, to think that you can retire the A-10, the best CAS platform in the inventory, because the wars it was best suited for (Iraq and Afghanistan) are wrapping up. Do they think that future wars will not involve similar conditions?

And the KC-10, which Jimmy pointed out, has cargo and tanker capabilities that can't be replaced, not even by the KC-46, such as the tanker drag of a fighter squadron (with equipment) across an ocean.

And the F-15C, which would leave dedicated air superiority aircraft at an embarrassing level (only 187 F-22A's).

That's why I read it as a threat to congress, get your act together, or you'll force us to degrade our capabilities to an unacceptable level.

The question I have, is the US spends more on defence than the rest of the world, by a wide margin, where is all the money going? They aren't maintaining a force structure that's bigger then other countries by the same margin as the bigger spending.

[gf0012-aust]

Whats telling is that the USAF is the one defending A-10, after all she's the force usually pilloried by others for not understanding CAS - despite the fact that she's the one who established the mods and platform life extension progs.

the whole idea of extending the A-10's service life was to ensure that the capability and niche was maintained until substitutes were in place - and that was USAF driven.

Then there's the usual cry coming from some that the CAS fixed wing role should be run by Army as USAF are "divorced" from understanding the req (all convenient and IMO, trite hysterical and unfounded)

congress needs a kick up the nads

[desertswo]

Jeez, you guys ought to do a tour in DC. We'd have you on continuous Valium IV drip in no time at all.

[Jimmy]

^It's gonna be an interesting situation here in another 10-15 years. I keep tabs on most of the officers I served with, and with exactly five exceptions, all of them that are worth a damn and willing to look further the road than the end of their dick has gotten out or is counting the days. I look at the recent major's board results and I'm appalled at some of the people who'll be FGOs soon...looking at the names that should be there but aren't, I see they're out or will be soon. I'm really interested to see (from a distance) the kinds of decisions these lifers will make, considering several of them seemed to have done their damnedest to get someone killed already. The one bright spot is that the guy who A-almost ran two airplanes together as a controller, B-almost started a fire on the jet, and C-drew his M9 on an SNCO to win an argument was forced out.

The question I have, is the US spends more on defence than the rest of the world, by a wide margin, where is all the money going? They aren't maintaining a force structure that's bigger then other countries by the same margin as the bigger spending.

Fantastic benefits, one of the most expensive of which is free dependent healthcare. It's a horrifying drain on finances and medical personnel. Throw in the millions of Cold Warriors who have the best pension plan in the country and healthcare (and most of them are old men with all the health problems you'd expect), and that part alone adds up quick. Pensions alone make up over $50B, VA healthcare is about $70B (and actually UNDERfunded). Interest on old war debts fall under the DOD budget as well. But keep in mind, fighting wars is expensive: operations and maintenance for 2011 was almost $300B.

[desertswo]

^It's gonna be an interesting situation here in another 10-15 years. I keep tabs on most of the officers I served with, and with exactly five exceptions, all of them that are worth a damn and willing to look further the road than the end of their dick has gotten out or is counting the days. I look at the recent major's board results and I'm appalled at some of the people who'll be FGOs soon...looking at the names that should be there but aren't, I see they're out or will be soon. I'm really interested to see (from a distance) the kinds of decisions these lifers will make, considering several of them seemed to have done their damnedest to get someone killed already. The one bright spot is that the guy who A-almost ran two airplanes together as a controller, B-almost started a fire on the jet, and C-drew his M9 on an SNCO to win an argument was forced out.

Well, I could throw a lot of fuel on this particular fire, but unless you lived it, it sounds too much like sour grapes, so I don't go there. Ever.

Fantastic benefits, one of the most expensive of which is free dependent healthcare. It's a horrifying drain on finances and medical personnel. Throw in the millions of Cold Warriors who have the best pension plan in the country and healthcare (and most of them are old men with all the health problems you'd expect), and that part alone adds up quick. Pensions alone make up over $50B, VA healthcare is about $70B (and actually UNDERfunded). Interest on old war debts fall under the DOD budget as well. But keep in mind, fighting wars is expensive: operations and maintenance for 2011 was almost $300B.

You've hit a very large nail on the head. I've tried to explain this to civilians with no knowledge of how DoD works, but suffice it to say that the longest pole in the tent DoD funding-wise is always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS the personnel cost, because you aren't just paying for the weapons system but for the people who operate that system. Don't think for a moment that those costs aren't figured in under things like O & M funding. It may not say "personnel" explicitly, but they are always considered when required end strength for the force is calculated. How or why? Well, certainly basic pay is a sunk cost, as is Basic Allowance for Housing, Basic Allowance for Subsistence, and even retirement pay (actually unseen is what a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine is actually paid in terms of retirement . . . yes, money is actually held out of monthly pay checks to go into a retirement fund; it's a dirty little secret of the military pay system) but things like;

Hardship Duty Pay
Career Sea Pay
Hostile Fire and Imminent Danger Pay
Flight Pay
Aviation Career Incentive Pay for Officers
Hazardous Duty Incentive Pay
Special Warfare Officer Continuation Pay
Foreign Language Proficiency Pay / Foriegn Language Proficiency Bonus;

add up after a while, and those have to be accounted for in O & M funds. Then you have no idea what costs will be incurred after that deployment, operation, or all out war in terms of long term medical costs. PTSD seems to have no end as one example.

Anyway, the man in the loop is always the most expensive part of the system, and sometimes that cost goes on long after the system itself is dead and gone. I know, I are one.

[Jimmy]

Well, I could throw a lot of fuel on this particular fire, but unless you lived it, it sounds too much like sour grapes, so I don't go there. Ever.

I got out last year. I saw enough, and it's still rolling in the wrong direction. The guy I described...that all happened. I was one of his instructors during one of the times he had to re-earn his aircrew qual. I know there's always been a certain amount of "really?" going on in the military, but I've got stories that would piss you off. *shrug* The AF is broken in strange and impressive ways, and I'm not terribly confident that the people running it are the ones to fix it:


The "A" stands for Airpower, apparently.

[JRT]

...and I'm not terribly confident that the people running it are the ones to fix it:


.

In case anybody missed this last week, above is Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark A. Welsh wearing the mask of a comic book character Captain America during his address to the Air Force Association’s Annual Air & Space Conference and Technology Exposition at the Gaylord National Resort & Convention Center in National Harbor, Md., on Tuesday, September 17, 2013. A news story about this mentioned that the Captain America character was in the Army, which may add to the amusement of some, the humiliation of others.

Below is Billy Mitchell wearing some head gear, not at all similar.

[Skywatcher]

In all fairness, the USAF was part of the Army when Captain America first signed up.