College Football 2013

[Albany Rifles]

Next time take a knee. Make the decision for them.

[S2]

"Next time take a knee. Make the decision for them."

Ummm...isn't that what my posted photo just showed? Stave taking a knee?

[YellowFever]

I think what AR meant was take a knee and stay there until you hear a whistle.

What I first thought happened when I saw that clip was that the QB bumped against his own linesman and kind of wobbled and then suddenly put the ball on the ground and walked away.

Even in the pic S2 posted, his knee was clearly on the ground but the ball was in his hands.

it was done in a split second and the zebras could've missed the knee on the ground easily.

The refs were clearly at fault for not calling the ball dead but the QB made that decision harder than it should have been for the refs to call.

[S2]

"...I think what AR meant was take a knee and stay there until you hear a whistle."

Whistle from backjudge was near immediate. Here's a rule, though, so few here and elsewhere apparently understand-

The 2011 and 2012 NCAA Rules state in Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3(o): "'A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead … When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.'[3]"

That's ALL Stave need do. This he did...and more. The photo of Stave kneeling makes that clear to you. Stave's action and the ref's whistle should have done the same elsewhere. All that followed is on the refs

[bonehead]

I know you are upset but 2012 Rose bowl was Oregon..not Oregon state."

Read more closely. I mentioned Oregon AND Oregon State. Even highlighted in red and underlined the link.

The quarterback's knee was down. THE WHISTLE had blown. So those questioning this part are missing the point. The OFFICIALS recognized the play was over. It doesn't matter that you don't.

[ATTACH]33931[/ATTACH]


"I really am not buying the need to center the ball for the kicker. We are not talking 50 yarders."

Yeah...again you don't matter. Your cannon leg isn't being wielded out there. Kyle French was expected to take the try and he's had a tough career so far. 18 seconds is a lifetime. Only two of those seconds elapsed before the whistle blew stopping play. That should have left 16 seconds to snap, spike, stop the clock and get the field goal team out there. Done all the time...except on the west coast.

LOL my bad...missed a period.

At best one official recognized what happened. Many on the field clearly didn't and to the announcers who had the best seats in the house called a fumble.

"My cannon leg" Thats a hoot as anything past the 20 yard line may as well have been in the next state for me. The point is that I DO know enough that moving the ball over a few feet at that distance is what doesn't matter.

The average amount of time that expired per play during the game was about 18 seconds...shorter for passing plays and longer for running as for instance they don't stop the clock on a running play where you lose a couple of yards. Wisconsin had 18 seconds. Wisconsin gambled and lost on what can only be described as a bizarre play. That is how it is going to go in the books.

If it make you feel better.
Pac-12 Conference reprimands officials from Arizona State-Wisconsin game - ESPN
Since it comes from a league and not the NCAA.... just lip service.

[bonehead]

"Next time take a knee. Make the decision for them."

Ummm...isn't that what my posted photo just showed? Stave taking a knee?

The photo taken from a mile away? If that was a fourth down play and the game was over at that point you would be arguing his knee came close but did not touch. You don't see that at all watching the video and if his knee did touch you would not even have to blink to miss it in real time.

[Minskaya]

The photo taken from a mile away? If that was a fourth down play and the game was over at that point you would be arguing his knee came close but did not touch. You don't see that at all watching the video and if his knee did touch you would not even have to blink to miss it in real time.

A referee saw the knee touch and blew his whistle signaling the play was over. The officiating crew badly mishandled this sequence and their reprimand was well earned.

[S2]

bonehead, it's clear you aren't reading the thread closely. Average isn't at play. The moment, instead, is. Nothing about the actual play or spiking the ball would suggest they take the "average" amount of time to run. If so, they wouldn't be standard choices at the end of games. One of those two plays had already been run and whistled after TWO SECONDS.

Your thoughts on the kicker and the choice to center the ball is the irrelevant off-hand, smarmy snipe of a fan neither knowledgable of the kicker's general skill nor the specific circumstances. Did you watch warmups? I didn't but maybe Andersen did and perhaps noted his kicks drifting right? That's what coaches do. Meanwhile the kicker's chances, based on AVERAGE, has been poor. Andersen is giving himself the best chance to make the kick and doing so prudently-absent these incompetent boobs.

"The photo taken from a mile away? If that was a fourth down play and the game was over at that point you would be arguing his knee came close but did not touch. You don't see that at all watching the video and if his knee did touch you would not even have to blink to miss it in real time."

It wouldn't have mattered if the knee touched. You know that, of course, because you've read my previous post quoting the NCAA rule on the matter. Or maybe, not... again.

"LOL my bad...missed a period."

And a red, underlined link.

Let's help you...again-

"The 2011 and 2012 NCAA Rules state in Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3(o): "'A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead … When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.'[3]"

Does that help?

The runner simulated placing the knee to the ground. Done. The rule and actual act are salient. The back judge recognized the rule immediately and whistled the ball dead. It was clear to every ref there that the play was OVER yet they never, ever stopped the clock to re-set the ball. Instead, the umpire engages in a wrestling contest with an ASU player for the ball and then holds back the UW line from getting set. The guy was mentally overwhelmed by the moment. Totally so and tick-tock goes the clock.


I'm done on this. The issue has been settled for those smart enough to get it. Score's in the books. Wisconsin and the refs get a big loss. Arizona State gets a win. Might have been a well-earned win but for sixteen dissolved seconds. We'll never know but it wasn't their fault.

Oh well.

[guicho80]

The ball was dead and recognized as such. The ASU player should have been assessed a delay of game penalty for laying on a dead ball. If that play is officiated competently, Wisconsin gets the ball with enough time to run a spike play and then bring out their kicking unit.

[bonehead]

bonehead, it's clear you aren't reading the thread closely. Average isn't at play. The moment, instead, is. Nothing about the actual play or spiking the ball would suggest they take the "average" amount of time to run. If so, they wouldn't be standard choices at the end of games. One of those two plays had already been run and whistled after TWO SECONDS.

Your thoughts on the kicker and the choice to center the ball is the irrelevant off-hand, smarmy snipe of a fan neither knowledgable of the kicker's general skill nor the specific circumstances. Did you watch warmups? I didn't but maybe Andersen did and perhaps noted his kicks drifting right? That's what coaches do. Meanwhile the kicker's chances, based on AVERAGE, has been poor. Andersen is giving himself the best chance to make the kick and doing so prudently-absent these incompetent boobs.

"The photo taken from a mile away? If that was a fourth down play and the game was over at that point you would be arguing his knee came close but did not touch. You don't see that at all watching the video and if his knee did touch you would not even have to blink to miss it in real time."

It wouldn't have mattered if the knee touched. You know that, of course, because you've read my previous post quoting the NCAA rule on the matter. Or maybe, not... again.

"LOL my bad...missed a period."

And a red, underlined link.

Let's help you...again-

"The 2011 and 2012 NCAA Rules state in Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3(o): "'A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead … When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.'[3]"

Does that help?

The runner simulated placing the knee to the ground. Done. The rule and actual act are salient. The back judge recognized the rule immediately and whistled the ball dead. It was clear to every ref there that the play was OVER yet they never, ever stopped the clock to re-set the ball. Instead, the umpire engages in a wrestling contest with an ASU player for the ball and then holds back the UW line from getting set. The guy was mentally overwhelmed by the moment. Totally so and tick-tock goes the clock.


I'm done on this. The issue has been settled for those smart enough to get it. Score's in the books. Wisconsin and the refs get a big loss. Arizona State gets a win. Might have been a well-earned win but for sixteen dissolved seconds. We'll never know but it wasn't their fault.

Oh well.

I still don't see how placing the ball on the ground simulates taking a knee. He should have handed the ball to the ref. Secondly if his knee did touch the ground as per the picture, no simulation was needed and this whole discussion is pointless. Perhaps the coach will trust his kicker can make a 12 yarder from the hash next time.

[S2]

"I still don't see how placing the ball on the ground simulates taking a knee."

I know.

"He should have handed the ball to the ref. Secondly if his knee did touch the ground as per the picture, no simulation was needed and this whole discussion is pointless."

No. He did right. The ball was down where he was. Marking that spot with the ball centers the team and saves looking for the ref. That was Andersen's intent and this exact approach had been used successfully by him in the past. Stave properly executed Andersen's intent but your refs were thoroughly asleep at the wheel with zero sense of urgency. Never the case when ASU had the ball. Nor could they be surprised by the moment. Or could they?

You've argued fumbles, knees, tactics, kickers, etc. You've ignored photos, rule quotes and even a reprimand from your own conference.

Thanks for jerking my chain. I'm certain you'll understand if I excuse myself to puke.

[bonehead]

"I still don't see how placing the ball on the ground simulates taking a knee."

I know.

"He should have handed the ball to the ref. Secondly if his knee did touch the ground as per the picture, no simulation was needed and this whole discussion is pointless."

No. He did right. The ball was down where he was. Marking that spot with the ball centers the team and saves looking for the ref. That was Andersen's intent and this exact approach had been used successfully by him in the past. Stave properly executed Andersen's intent but your refs were thoroughly asleep at the wheel with zero sense of urgency. Never the case when ASU had the ball. Nor could they be surprised by the moment. Or could they?

You've argued fumbles, knees, tactics, kickers, etc. You've ignored photos, rule quotes and even a reprimand from your own conference.

Thanks for jerking my chain. I'm certain you'll understand if I excuse myself to puke.

Wisconsin has a history of choking at the end of close games so you should be used to it by now. You don't have to like it but it is what it is.

No I haven't ignored any of the evidence you presented. I only looked at it objectively. BTW Oregon, with the fast offense, taught the players to give the ball to the ref so they can line up faster. Perhaps you can show me in the rule book where a player can take over the refs job and spot the ball. Secondly I ask again was he down because his knee hit the ground or because of a "simulation" of downing his knee. You have argued both but there can be only one.

[Minskaya]

Wisconsin has a history of choking at the end of close games so you should be used to it by now. You don't have to like it but it is what it is.

No I haven't ignored any of the evidence you presented. I only looked at it objectively. BTW Oregon, with the fast offense, taught the players to give the ball to the ref so they can line up faster. Perhaps you can show me in the rule book where a player can take over the refs job and spot the ball. Secondly I ask again was he down because his knee hit the ground or because of a "simulation" of downing his knee. You have argued both but there can be only one.

You either just don't get it or you'll blissfully ignore shoddy officiating if the result is a W.

According to the NCAA rules manual (Rule 4, Article 2, Section A), the ball is dead if "an official sounds his whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.". ✓ DONE

The same Rule 4 also states that the play is dead "when a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground." ✓ DONE

To any fair-minded observer, the officiating crew exhibited utter confusion and total incompetence in that sequence.

The PAC 12 agrees with this analysis...

A statement released by the conference said commissioner Larry Scott was taking "additional sanctions against officials" for their failure to "properly administer the end of game situation and act with appropriate urgency on the game's final play." "This was an unusual situation to end the game," Scott said in the statement. "After a thorough review, we have determined that the officials fell short of the high standard in which Pac-12 games should be managed.

They didn't just fall short. They fell far short.

[S2]

"Wisconsin has a history of choking at the end of close games so you should be used to it by now. You don't have to like it but it is what it is."

You are correct that Wisconsin hasn't lost a game by more than seven points since early 2010 (-10 to Michigan State on the road). Close losses all. That said, I'm fascinated by your exclusion of our last moment victories. It's actually happened-recently even. I'd offer a #7th ranked Iowa in 2010 and Michigan State in the 2011 Big Ten Championship game.

Even your sense of history is terribly skewed.

I sense a smarmy agenda. Too bad. It'll color your offered perspectives going forward.

[bonehead]

"Wisconsin has a history of choking at the end of close games so you should be used to it by now. You don't have to like it but it is what it is."

You are correct that Wisconsin hasn't lost a game by more than seven points since early 2010 (-10 to Michigan State on the road). Close losses all. That said, I'm fascinated by your exclusion of our last moment victories. It's actually happened-recently even. I'd offer a #7th ranked Iowa in 2010 and Michigan State in the 2011 Big Ten Championship game.

Even your sense of history is terribly skewed.

I sense a smarmy agenda. Too bad. It'll color your offered perspectives going forward.

Now now. I was not the one starting the thread about losing another close one. The whole thread was about another loss decided in the final seconds. If you want to relive some of the glory games and I am sure there are many, I have no problems with that. I just have no patience listening to a grown man cry....unless it is me.