A question regarding the F's 15 and 16A

[Rimsey]

Just been watching a series of docos called "Wings of the Red Star" and a couple of times the development of the F's 15 and 16 were mentioned not only were they air superiority fighters but they also had ground attack ability. Was this the case? I thought they only gained that ability in later models.

Please enlighten this rather uneducated and dense fanboy!

[GGTharos]

They could always drop bombs. The USAF made sure that the F-15ABCD didn't have much software loaded for such action though - in that respect, they kept the F-15's mission air to air, while the Strike Eagle took over for the F-111, IIRC.

[Stitch]

GGTharos is pretty close; the original mantra for the F-15 was "not a pound for air-to-ground", meaning the F-15 was going to be designed and developed strictly for the air superiority/interceptor mission. First flight of the air-superiority F-15A was in 1972, and it wasn't until almost a decade later that the US Air Force began to seriously look at the F-15 as a possible replacement for the aging F-111 (which was also in competition with the General Dynamics F-16XL as an F-111 replacement). Chogy could probably add more details to this summary, as he was an F-15 driver.

I never really followed the development of the F-16 closely, but I believe the designers were a little more flexible in their thinking, and designed a limited air-to-ground capability into the F-16 airframe from the beginning. The F-16 didn't originally have a very sophisticated radar (though that has since then been rectified), so the F-16A wasn't really capable of precision bombing until the advent of the AN/APG-68 in the F-16C.

[gunnut]

F-15 and F-16 were developed purely for air-to-air combat. F-15, like mentioned already, was a pure performance fighter. F-16 was designed as a light-weight, cheap, day-light (limited capability) fighter to supplement the more expensive F-15. Both jets were designed with excess power and room to grow.

As an example, ever heard of the F-20 Tigershark? It was the ultimate evolution of the F-5 series light fighter. It used a single F-404 engine and had about 80% of the performance of F-16 back then, at maybe half the cost. That seemed to be a pretty good bargain. A light fighter that did almost everything the F-16 was able to do but at a significant discount. The problem was F-20 was at the end of the airframe growth. It just wasn't made to take on more roles.

Meanwhile, the F-16, being a new design, had room to grow, both in engine power and airframe capability. It grew into a premiere all-weather fighter bomber.

F-15, with its much larger air frame and significant higher power, turned into a powerful interdiction striker aircraft.

[GGTharos]

Yes, that was the USAF mantra. The funding mantra was 'it can do that if it has to' ... so the F-15 always had air to ground modes. The radar mapping mode was also used to correct the INS drift, and it was equipped with a CCIP for bombs and guns. There may have been some other modes also, but they were not actually loaded onto the aircraft's fire control computer because of the mantra you mentioned. The aircraft was, however, cleared for at least Mk82's and Mk84's, IIRC and AFAIK. Note that the Israelis used those air to ground modes since, unlike the USAF, they couldn't have a large complement of air to air only aircraft.

GGTharos is pretty close; the original mantra for the F-15 was "not a pound for air-to-ground", meaning the F-15 was going to be designed and developed strictly for the air superiority/interceptor mission. First flight of the air-superiority F-15A was in 1972, and it wasn't until almost a decade later that the US Air Force began to seriously look at the F-15 as a possible replacement for the aging F-111 (which was also in competition with the General Dynamics F-16XL as an F-111 replacement). Chogy could probably add more details to this summary, as he was an F-15 driver.

[gunnut]

I remember wabpilot told us about how the USN turned F-14 Tomcat into "Bombcat."

F-14 was designed as a fleet air defense fighter. The radar and fire control system weren't set up for air to ground...or so we thought. It turned out the original designers at Grumman and the company that designed the electronics had built air to ground capability into the system already, but never activated. They believed that a fighter with this much potential should be multi-role. The navy didn't ask for it, but they figured they'd include it anyways. Just not tell anyone.

I believe it was wabpilot who originally tried to use F-14 as a bomber. Somehow someone at Grumman found out and helped him reset the computer to enable air to ground mode. The base commander was supportive and gave him all the resources he needed to experiment.

I can't find that post right now. My google-fu is pitiful. Maybe someone can find it.

I really miss wabpilot, and highsea too.

[Jimmy]

I remember that post as well, now that you bring it up.

[Stitch]

I remember wabpilot told us about how the USN turned F-14 Tomcat into "Bombcat."

F-14 was designed as a fleet air defense fighter. The radar and fire control system weren't set up for air to ground...or so we thought. It turned out the original designers at Grumman and the company that designed the electronics had built air to ground capability into the system already, but never activated. They believed that a fighter with this much potential should be multi-role. The navy didn't ask for it, but they figured they'd include it anyways. Just not tell anyone.

I believe it was wabpilot who originally tried to use F-14 as a bomber. Somehow someone at Grumman found out and helped him reset the computer to enable air to ground mode. The base commander was supportive and gave him all the resources he needed to experiment.

I can't find that post right now. My google-fu is pitiful. Maybe someone can find it.

I really miss wabpilot, and highsea too.

As requested:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mil...4-parts-3.html

[Chogy]

There was nothing "hidden" in the F-15A through D models - major switches were in there to set the aircraft up for air to ground. When actuated, the HUD did funny things and put up symbology that we were utterly unable to understand or use, because we were not trained for it.

More importantly, our operating manuals simply didn't go into it much in terms of operational use. So it was all there in terms of hardware, still is, but is unused... for now.

People often don't realize how powerful these modern jets are. The bomb load on an F-15E easily exceeds that of a B-17 heavy bomber of WW2... AND it can drop every bomb with extreme accuracy.

[gunnut]

There was nothing "hidden" in the F-15A through D models - major switches were in there to set the aircraft up for air to ground. When actuated, the HUD did funny things and put up symbology that we were utterly unable to understand or use, because we were not trained for it.

More importantly, our operating manuals simply didn't go into it much in terms of operational use. So it was all there in terms of hardware, still is, but is unused... for now.

People often don't realize how powerful these modern jets are. The bomb load on an F-15E easily exceeds that of a B-17 heavy bomber of WW2... AND it can drop every bomb with extreme accuracy.

The thing that most amazes me is how the wing spars are able to take all that stress. F-16's wings aren't exactly buff looking. That thing can carry a few thousand pounds of stuff and not break.

[TopHatter]

The bomb load on an F-15E easily exceeds that of a B-17 heavy bomber of WW2... AND it can drop every bomb with extreme accuracy.

I was curious as to what "easily exceeds" translated to in pounds

From Wiki:

F-15E
23,000 lbs Combat radius: 790 mi (1,150 mi (max))

B-17G
Short range missions (<400 mi): 8,000 lb (3,600 kg)
Long range missions (≈800 mi): 4,500 lb (2,000 kg)
Overload: 17,600 lb (7,800 kg)

[Stitch]

People often don't realize how powerful these modern jets are. The bomb load on an F-15E easily exceeds that of a B-17 heavy bomber of WW2... AND it can drop every bomb with extreme accuracy.

AND do it with nine fewer men!

Maximum practical bombload for the B-17 was 8,000 lbs., but with the range reduced to 400 miles; with a reduced bombload (4,500 lbs.) it'll do twice that range (roughly 800 miles). The F-15E, on the other hand, can carry up to 23,000 lbs. with a maximum range of 790 miles! AND do it in less than half the time!

Edit: TopHatter beat me to the specs!

[gunnut]

As requested:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mil...4-parts-3.html

Awesome!!! It's so amazing to read the little details back in the days of the Cold War. I miss the Cold War...

[GGTharos]

I heard they did a -little- bit of JDAM delivery training lately, but I don't know how accurate my information is.

More importantly, our operating manuals simply didn't go into it much in terms of operational use. So it was all there in terms of hardware, still is, but is unused... for now.

[avon1944]

A question regarding the F's 15 and 16A

I heard they did a -little- bit of JDAM delivery training lately, but I don't know how accurate my information is.

gunnut
"I remember wabpilot told us about how the USN turned F-14 Tomcat into "Bombcat."
F-14 was designed as a fleet air defense fighter. The radar and fire control system weren't set up for air to ground...or so we thought. It turned out the original designers at Grumman and the company that designed the electronics had built air to ground capability.
Yes the Navy knew of the F-14s abilities but, the threat from Soviet bombers were to real, to take a chance to lose the marvelous plane to land based air defenses.

The need for a fighter bomber that could carry a load of bombs well north of Kabul was needed. This is something none of the F/A-18 variants, even with mid-air refueling could do!