Rafale HUD video in DACT encounter with F-22

[Jimmy]

^It really is that awesome. The incompetence is on public display every day.

That wouldn't be why Tyndall is getting a permanent squadron of Talons (getting them on station as quick as Holloman can refurbish them).

GOOD! They should've done that years ago, as soon as the 1FS was shut down and the rest of the F-15 squadrons started rolling back training sorties.

[merlin2]

Or the 3 times he'd have been shot down BVR.

French air force has a long history of releasing completely irrelevant and childish images from their jets. It's for the home audience who they need to defend a ultra-expensive protectionist fighter industry which is now in a big trouble ..Nobody takes it seriously. Rafale is still with ZERO export .

[Chogy]

I once gunned an F-15 while flying a T-38.

Therefore, the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the T-38 is superior; we must ground our fleet of Eagles and restart the Northrop T-38 line.

[Jimmy]

The best part is, they'll be a bargain at only $75M! I mean $90M. Oh, uh, $130M. And we're gonna have to push back IOC by about 8 years.

[Loke]

French air force has a long history of releasing completely irrelevant and childish images from their jets. It's for the home audience who they need to defend a ultra-expensive protectionist fighter industry which is now in a big trouble ..Nobody takes it seriously. Rafale is still with ZERO export .

AFAIK Rafale was delivered almost on time and budget, unlike most other major defence programs the last few decades.

Rafale is expensive in part because so few planes are being produced, no doubt the cuts are hurting and exporting it is difficult, however if you compare to other 4.5 gen fighter jets:

Su-35: zero exports
Mig-35: zero exports
Gripen NG: zero export
Silent Eagle: zero exports
SH: one export

Only the Typhoon has more than one export! In spite of that it is horribly expensive.

Why would nobody take Rafale seriously? It has been shortlisted in most competitions, and was declared the winner in India. Leaks from Switzerland demonstrated that it was quite mature already in 2008, unlike the Typhoon. It seems the pros take it seriously...

[gf0012-aust]

AFAIK Rafale was delivered almost on time and budget, unlike most other major defence programs the last few decades.

Rafale is expensive in part because so few planes are being produced, no doubt the cuts are hurting and exporting it is difficult, however if you compare to other 4.5 gen fighter jets:

Su-35: zero exports
Mig-35: zero exports
Gripen NG: zero export
Silent Eagle: zero exports
SH: one export

Only the Typhoon has more than one export! In spite of that it is horribly expensive.

Why would nobody take Rafale seriously? It has been shortlisted in most competitions, and was declared the winner in India. Leaks from Switzerland demonstrated that it was quite mature already in 2008, unlike the Typhoon. It seems the pros take it seriously...

You do realise that the French Govt in the last fortnight has decided to halve the number of Rafales required for her own forces? They are hoping that they will secure a definite export order to compensate for budget shortfalls

an indigenous aircraft that has its own fleet cut by half doesn't reflect well for potential export buyers as its seen as a lack of confidence

Its a nice little platform, but its entry into history has been a temporal story of bad luck.

No amount of spin by anyone is going to change the fundamental facts of its actual legacy in the market

[gf0012-aust]

French air force has a long history of releasing completely irrelevant and childish images from their jets. It's for the home audience who they need to defend a ultra-expensive protectionist fighter industry which is now in a big trouble ..Nobody takes it seriously. Rafale is still with ZERO export .

People who are getting excited by HUD images out of a DACT event demonstrate a spectacular lack of understanding of the intent of DACT - and more importantly, a just as spectacular lack of awarness of a HUD image in context against the mission profile for aircraft in that specific event.

If countries were going to base all their fixed wing combat aircraft purchases on HUD images then everyone would be buying T38's and scooters...

[Loke]

You do realise that the French Govt in the last fortnight has decided to halve the number of Rafales required for her own forces? They are hoping that they will secure a definite export order to compensate for budget shortfalls

I wrote "no doubt the cuts are hurting". What do you think I was referring to?

an indigenous aircraft that has its own fleet cut by half doesn't reflect well for potential export buyers as its seen as a lack of confidence

You do realize that several European F-35 partner countries have strongly reduced the number of F-35 they are planning to order, and that at least one of them has not officially decided whether purchasing the F-35 at all?

However I don't think this demonstrates a lack of confidence in the F-35; instead I think it is reflecting the following:

1. There is no major threat to Europe that requires high level of investments in defence
2. There is a major economical crisis hitting most European countries. They simply cannot afford to stick to their original plans, and need to cut back, even if it hurts.

I believe that items 1 and 2 above applies to France as well.

No amount of spin by anyone is going to change the fundamental facts of its actual legacy in the market

If you by "spin" are referring to anything written by me I would appreciate if you could be more specific and tell me what I have written that can be considered as "spin". I am here to learn, and your comment above is not very helpful in that respect.

[gf0012-aust]

If you by "spin" are referring to anything written by me I would appreciate if you could be more specific and tell me what I have written that can be considered as "spin". I am here to learn, and your comment above is not very helpful in that respect.

Let me establish some ground work before I respond, as I want to make sure that there is no cultural disconnect in advance.

are you asking for a serious response or are you being combative because you didn't like my response?

If its the latter, the the conversation will be very short

[Loke]

I am asking for a serious response.


Thank you in advance.

[gf0012-aust]

I wrote "no doubt the cuts are hurting". What do you think I was referring to?

to be honest, I missed it in the sense that I thought you were referring to generic defence cuts in France, as opposed to the severity of the Rafale cuts when compared to other French procurement issues.

You do realize that several European F-35 partner countries have strongly reduced the number of F-35 they are planning to order, and that at least one of them has not officially decided whether purchasing the F-35 at all?

There have been no cuts, some countries have deferred but others don't need to make the next procurement decision until next year. There is a vast difference between the announcemente made for JSF as opposed to Rafale where the claims about purchase have not been established contractually.

However I don't think this demonstrates a lack of confidence in the F-35; instead I think it is reflecting the following:

1. There is no major threat to Europe that requires high level of investments in defence
2. There is a major economical crisis hitting most European countries. They simply cannot afford to stick to their original plans, and need to cut back, even if it hurts.

I believe that items 1 and 2 above applies to France as well.

The french have a different risk model to consider - and that has far more impact upon them

JSF was an international project. even if some of the original tranche members cut their orders, there are 3 other countries indicating that they will take their production slots.
Even if all the international partners cancelled their orders then JSF will survive due to the sheer numbers still required by the USG (and the int partners cancelling all orders is highly unlikely based on the current commitments recently made by some partners to confirm first deliveries)

The French were hoping that they could counterbalance their own force reduction issues by getting foreign sales - and India was the biggie that was going to save them. That has not happened. The difference is that France can't afford to maintain production and needs foreign sales to weather the storm. The americans can wear the hurt if necessary and the platform is not at risk despite all the usual internet fury that happens in some other sites :)

I agree with (2) being used as a vehicle of opportunity for various Govt treasury officials to prune their future force development
I disagree to some extent with proposition (1) - most countries with high end militaries understand that "we don't have an extant threat" argument can turn faster than a dog running on polished wooden floor... (and why there are JSF partners who talk about deferment, but don't talk about cancellation

If you by "spin" are referring to anything written by me I would appreciate if you could be more specific and tell me what I have written that can be considered as "spin". I am here to learn, and your comment above is not very helpful in that respect.

Nope, not referring to you. my comment was about people who think that HUD displays in DACT events are proof of life of the capability of one platform against another - ie they demonstrate a clear lack of understanding and comprehension of what DACT is designed to do for participating forces. I find that terribly frustrating as it either shows how dumb they are, how parochial they are or more to the point, that they should ask more fundamental questions rather than make assumptions

Misunderstanding and misrepresenting DACT is one of my Tier 1 pet hates :)

[gf0012-aust]

I am asking for a serious response.


Thank you in advance.

No probs, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't entering into a debate with a platform idealogue - those conversations are always one sided as the capacity to listen has already been tempered by emotional investment in the platform/country under discussions :)

[Loke]

Thanks :)

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks :)

Just to state the obvious, once India commits contractually to Rafale, then France then has the luxury of ramping up local Rafale consumption - so in theory all becomes good again

[Doktor]

Speaking of DACT, I always liked how Mirages looked, but I don't recall them winning anything.

I do realize there are various systems and not only the plane, but still.