Would like to dissect it and appoint each of the sides their due.
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Documentary = Afghanistan: The Price of Revenge
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostThe point is that human and economic cost of the US invasion, with very little to show for, clearly illustrates how flawed the policy of rushing into war, invading and occupying Afghanistan was.
Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostTens of thousands dead in Afghanistan and Pakistan - check the source again.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostThe point is, you threw out unsourced bullshit and are now trying to cover your tracks with moral piety.
And again, very cute of you to go from "Afghanistan" to "Afghanistan and Pakistan".
I adjusted my figures - are you going to move on now and address the actual argument of how flawed the US decision to wage war and invade Afghanistan was or keep trying to hide behind casualty figures?Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 13 Jun 13,, 14:28.Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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I completely agree that 'successful nation building' requires the 'nation being built' to actually desire it and participate in it wholeheartedly - I am not contesting the 'how' of nation building, rather arguing that the theory behind 'nation building' is sound. The rush to war in Afghanistan in 2001 prevented a proper analysis of the 'how' and 'if' of nation building in Afghanistan post invasion and occupation and created a much bigger mess.
Just because something (nation building) is possible, doesn't mean it is always desirable. The only sort of nation we'd attempt to build would be some sort of representative democracy, and the sad truth is, not every society can successfully be molded along those lines. And are we obliged to make the attempt? I don't think so. We don't "owe" Afghanistan squat, IMO.
The point is that human and economic cost of the US invasion, with very little to show for, clearly illustrates how flawed the policy of rushing into war, invading and occupying Afghanistan was.
Let me turn it about... let's say some terrorists sheltering in Afghanistan executed an attack in Islamabad that resulted in the same or greater carnage that we witnessed on 9/11. What would the response be? An invitation to talk over tea? I'd hope not. Such an attack is a true act of war.
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Originally posted by Chogy View PostI probably did not make my point clear.
Just because something (nation building) is possible, doesn't mean it is always desirable. The only sort of nation we'd attempt to build would be some sort of representative democracy, and the sad truth is, not every society can successfully be molded along those lines. And are we obliged to make the attempt? I don't think so. We don't "owe" Afghanistan squat, IMO.
Our mistake is the bolded portion. We were completely justified in "rushing to war" and invading Afghanistan. We identified the perpetrators, discovered them sheltered and protected in Afghanistan, and attacked accordingly.
Let me turn it about... let's say some terrorists sheltering in Afghanistan executed an attack in Islamabad that resulted in the same or greater carnage that we witnessed on 9/11. What would the response be? An invitation to talk over tea? I'd hope not. Such an attack is a true act of war.Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostI adjusted my figures - are you going to move on now and address the actual argument of how flawed the US decision to wage war and invade Afghanistan was or keep trying to hide behind casualty figures?
USA was attacked. The head of the attacks was located in Afghanistan. Was protected by the regime in power there.
If they shouldn't go to war after being attacked, what should they do in your view?No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostI have doubts, there is some "cultural difference" so to speak, tho, I have doubts.
USA was attacked. The head of the attacks was located in Afghanistan. Was protected by the regime in power there.
If they shouldn't go to war after being attacked, what should they do in your view?Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostActually the 'point' increasingly appears that you are far more interested in hijacking the discussion into an argument over 'tens of thousands dead vs hundreds of thousands dead'.
I adjusted my figures - are you going to move on now and address the actual argument of how flawed the US decision to wage war and invade Afghanistan was or keep trying to hide behind casualty figures?“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostThe regime publicly and officially offered to negotiate, asked for evidence implicating OBL, asked for negotiations on holding a trial in some mutually acceptable third country - the fact that none of these potential alternatives to war were explored was criminal.
He was, at the very least, an incredibly useful bargaining chip for extracting massive concessions (money, aid) from the United States.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostI didn't quite understand what you meant there - doubts about what? Cultural differences with respect to what?No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostThank you for adjusting your bullshit figures. Yes the US war plans, particularly long-term were flawed. The actual decision to invade was a foregone conclusion after 9/11.Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostThe regime publicly offered diddly-shit except stalling and obfuscating. They weren't going to give up OBL until hell froze over.
He was, at the very least, an incredibly useful bargaining chip for extracting massive concessions (money, aid) from the United States.Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostAbout the response on being attacked would unfold.
"I adjusted my figures - are you going to move on now and address the actual argument of how flawed the US decision to wage war and invade Afghanistan was or keep trying to hide behind casualty figures?"
I don't understand the context of your comment about 'doubts and cultural differences' in terms of my comment above.Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View PostThe whole idea was flawed - that the war was a 'foregone conclusion' only illustrates the extent of the 'bull shit' US intelligence, military and government planners fed decision makers and the American public.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostIf you want to say that about Iraq, I'd say you're pretty spot-on. But Afghanistan? What alternate reality are you living in?Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim
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