Indonesian president vows to outgun Australia - run and hide BF

[gf0012-aust]

Militarily we are somewhat peculiar. Most of the military is a remnant of 1980 ABRI's territorial army structure. While the Kostrad, Marines and SFs are the equivalent of our modern army. The training and equipment varies as well depending on that segregation. Like for example, the Leo2s we just purchased are going to the Kostrad.

All three branches are going on a modernization process, albeit very slowly and painful. Because they haven't managed to shake up organizational structure and put professionalism in place (this is also dependent on the previous segregation, the more well trained forces are more professional), so this has an effect on procurement. Corruption in the military is still very prevalent as well.

A threat? Hardly, but if the economy keeps growing, the military will keep enjoying budget increase as well. Even with that TNI got its hand full of homework until 2020-2025 struggling to make itself contemporary to 1980 Western military standard.

The only game changer would be a big buy into Russian/Chinese arms, but we are so close to the US right now that it is a small possibility, and the US is careful not to upset the regional balance.

Unsure if this is still the case, but previously TNI and the National Police absolutely hated each other. There have been instances where they were close to shooting at each other. I understand that this has tempered off a bit though as both are keen to ensure that the extremist islamists don't get a toe hold.

[paintgun]

I would argue that you have a few advantages. One of the positive legacies of Suharto (and good knows he left enough bad ones) is a stronger central govt. than India. Your smaller size demographically & territorially also helps with that. Central governments have their flaws, but when it comes to 'nation building' stuff in a place like Indonesia they are well handy.

Suharto era nostalgia is a trend these last couple years. When people have woes they recall how things were better off back then.
They just forget that people didn't protest, they just disappear, ergo no problem

Don't strain anything. Can't have you sent home before you've stolen a decent job.

Got a job interview next friday in Derrimut ;)

You can function with some of the former, you won't go anywhere without a bunch of the latter.

I'd rather have a cleaner Indonesia, a sentiment that many Indonesia people share.
Because corruption in Indonesia is not just a matter of profiteering, but more of a culture, so it translates into everything, which is bad.

Good. Getting them out of politics & the economy is good news for all. I'm actually pleased at the move to a more professional force. Soldiers who are totally focussed on soldiering will hopefully have less time for interference in other areas.

One of the student movement slogan during Soeharto era was ''get the army back to the barracks" , now they are trying to keep themselves in the barracks. Economic wise they are stripped out by the police force, both in running 'businesses' and securing interests. Back in Soeharto era, when you want to seal a big deal in provincial level, you need to sit down with the Governor/Mayor and the Army CO, now you sit down with the head of local police instead.
Not that everything is rosy about the armed forces, there are some elements who try to get their hands into the politics, but one good thing of Indonesia military is, the chain of command is pretty solid, so those who tried and stepped out of their line will get the mutation/rotation.

---------------------------

Unsure if this is still the case, but previously TNI and the National Police absolutely hated each other. There have been instances where they were close to shooting at each other. I understand that this has tempered off a bit though as both are keen to ensure that the extremist islamists don't get a toe hold.

There are cases of them shooting at each other, with casualties even, but most were caused by personal conflict or silly unit pride/ego. Institutionally they always know where the line is drawn.

[Bigfella]

Suharto era nostalgia is a trend these last couple years. When people have woes they recall how things were better off back then.
They just forget that people didn't protest, they just disappear, ergo no problem

The intellectually dull often idealize the unpleasant past - especially one that was so much simpler. Say what you will, but things were simpler under Suharto. You kept your mouth shut & hoped your connections were good enough to get you what you wanted.

Got a job interview next friday in Derrimut ;)

Derrimut. Damn! You MUST be desperate. Try not to go any further west of the city than Footscray myself.

I'd rather have a cleaner Indonesia, a sentiment that many Indonesia people share.
Because corruption in Indonesia is not just a matter of profiteering, but more of a culture, so it translates into everything, which is bad.

Fair point. My argument would be that the more educated people are & the more opportunities they can create & take advantage of the less power corruption-prone 'gatekeepers' will have. However, it isn't really an 'either or' situation. You need to do both to get anywhere.

One of the student movement slogan during Soeharto era was ''get the army back to the barracks" , now they are trying to keep themselves in the barracks. Economic wise they are stripped out by the police force, both in running 'businesses' and securing interests. Back in Soeharto era, when you want to seal a big deal in provincial level, you need to sit down with the Governor/Mayor and the Army CO, now you sit down with the head of local police instead.
Not that everything is rosy about the armed forces, there are some elements who try to get their hands into the politics, but one good thing of Indonesia military is, the chain of command is pretty solid, so those who tried and stepped out of their line will get the mutation/rotation.

Not sure that the police force stepping into that role is the greatest thing, but it is better than having the army doing it.ABRI & TNI created more problems than it/they ever solved. A narrowly defined mission is for the best.

[chanjyj]

Thought something similar myself.

Singapore is a little scary - so heavily armed it has to store stuff OS & just shy of Israeli levels of paranoia & readiness. ;) All that hurts it is size. Agree on the rest to a point.

*coughs* Heavily armed? We store half our stuff overseas and that stuff includes people.

When the earthquake hit Christchurch we were able to set up shop immediately, even the RAAF took 12 hours to mobilise. We were on manoeuvres with the NZDF... we are always on "manoeuvres", "exercises", "trainings" et al.

The only time this prancing around is going to stop is if there is a real threat. As for Indonesia clobbering its neighbours, there's enough bad blood between her and Malaysia to make that a forgone case. It's Indonesian politics again - which means the speech be forgotten in 72 hours.

[paintgun]

The intellectually dull often idealize the unpleasant past - especially one that was so much simpler. Say what you will, but things were simpler under Suharto. You kept your mouth shut & hoped your connections were good enough to get you what you wanted.

It is exactly that, how things were so simple back then.

Derrimut. Damn! You MUST be desperate. Try not to go any further west of the city than Footscray myself.

Hey gotta to start from somewhere, better than my current work doing non-skilled physical labor. I don't want to spend my time in Melbourne doing that or on a job that goes to nowhere.
Thinking about it, it's west of Footscray, west of Sunshine almost half the way to Ballarat.
(edit : i checked the map and Ballarat is actually way far west, been there only once, nice place!)

Not sure that the police force stepping into that role is the greatest thing, but it is better than having the army doing it.ABRI & TNI created more problems than it/they ever solved. A narrowly defined mission is for the best.

1998 was a Tiananmen for the TNI.
Someone need to fill in for them in the aftermath of things, the police force being civvies themselves, while still holding a physical presence and power as political tool, fits the bill perfectly

[Bigfella]

*coughs* Heavily armed? We store half our stuff overseas and that stuff includes people.

When the earthquake hit Christchurch we were able to set up shop immediately, even the RAAF took 12 hours to mobilise. We were on manoeuvres with the NZDF... we are always on "manoeuvres", "exercises", "trainings" et al.

.....which is precisely what makes you so scary. You have more kit than we do, you have more modern kit than we do, you have more trained personnel than we do & you have already infiltrated us. You have access to our power grid and our telecommunications system. You guys are like ninjas - you could be anywhere.

The only time this prancing around is going to stop is if there is a real threat.

Which I doubt either of us will live to see. Nothing worth taking that warrants a war. merely being irritating doesn't constitute cassus belli. ;)

As for Indonesia clobbering its neighbours, there's enough bad blood between her and Malaysia to make that a forgone case.

They do seem to agree that they don't much like you, but its more a 'playground; thing than a 'Hitler & Stalin visit Poland' thing.

It's Indonesian politics again - which means the speech be forgotten in 72 hours.

Probably not by the guys who want the shiny new kit. You can bet they will remember...and remind.

[Bigfella]

It is exactly that, how things were so simple back then.

Personally I like complex when it comes to politics & society. The ways you get to 'simple' tend not to appeal to me. At best boring, at worst bloody scary.

Hey gotta to start from somewhere, better than my current work doing non-skilled physical labor. I don't want to spend my time in Melbourne doing that or on a job that goes to nowhere.
Thinking about it, it's west of Footscray, west of Sunshine almost half the way to Ballarat.
(edit : i checked the map and Ballarat is actually way far west, been there only once, nice place!)

Well, I admire your preparedness to go to the ends of the earth to get a job....and Derrimut is far closer to the end than I ever want to get. I get to work in leafy Hawthorn and I get to walk there every day from the gentrified inner suburbs - all very civilized.

My grandparents used to live in Bendigo, so I used to visit Ballarat occasionally. Both are lovely little towns, but Ballarat is a godawful place in the winter. Freezing! I grew up in Albury & could see snow capped mountains from the house - Ballarat is WAY colder. Nice in summer though. In fact, that whole area is nice. Lots of quaint little towns & green rolling hills. Much more picturesque than home.

Oh, and I was serious about that beer. Give me a shout if you ever want to say g'day. :)

1998 was a Tiananmen for the TNI.
Someone need to fill in for them in the aftermath of things, the police force being civvies themselves, while still holding a physical presence and power as political tool, fits the bill perfectly

I guess that's progress...of a sort. ;)

[chanjyj]

.....which is precisely what makes you so scary. You have more kit than we do, you have more modern kit than we do, you have more trained personnel than we do & you have already infiltrated us. You have access to our power grid and our telecommunications system. You guys are like ninjas - you could be anywhere.

Indeed, I've infiltrated Brisbane for the past 3 months

They do seem to agree that they don't much like you, but its more a 'playground; thing than a 'Hitler & Stalin visit Poland' thing.

Probably not by the guys who want the shiny new kit. You can bet they will remember...and remind.

I've been on the ground with the Indonesians. From my POV (observing them), the boots on the ground's biggest concern is Malaysia rather than anything else. Obviously, this is borderline irrational, but then you start to observe them dismissing SBY as well. Which makes one wonder.

[Bigfella]

Indeed, I've infiltrated Brisbane for the past 3 months

SEE!! Bet you snuck one of those Leo 2s in you luggage just waiting for a chance!

I've been on the ground with the Indonesians. From my POV (observing them), the boots on the ground's biggest concern is Malaysia rather than anything else. Obviously, this is borderline irrational, but then you start to observe them dismissing SBY as well. Which makes one wonder.

Didn't say you worried them, just irritated them.

[chanjyj]

SEE!! Bet you snuck one of those Leo 2s in you luggage just waiting for a chance!

*coughs* No Leo2s but I got the nasty treatment at the airport when they saw me with 2 UHF radios. Made me go through a millimetre wave scanner, took samples off my bag for explosive residue (seriously?!), hand searched my bag, took out my laptop, asked me to remove my lithium ion batteries, asked me to take off my watch, fingered my flashlight, fiddled with my pen.. I'm surprised they didn't ask me to remove my footwear as well.

The only nice thing was the cute sniffer dog

Wonder what will happen end of this year when I fly back with 2 analog UHF radios, 1 SDR UHF radio, 1 UHF/VHF transceiver, 3 antennas... and a whole lot of other little odds and ends. I hope they don't strip-search me. I'm shy

[gf0012-aust]

.....which is precisely what makes you so scary. You have more kit than we do, you have more modern kit than we do, you have more trained personnel than we do & you have already infiltrated us. You have access to our power grid and our telecommunications system. You guys are like ninjas - you could be anywhere.

Not really a valid comparison. :)

They're geared for a specific threat, They need to belt that threat and carry the day in very very short order otherwise as soon as the "red team" regroup, mobilise and respond coherently, then they are in a difficult position and everyone in the region is reaching for the phones and invoking 5PDA to trigger a pause so as to either save face or gather oxygen

They do seem to agree that they don't much like you, but its more a 'playground; thing than a 'Hitler & Stalin visit Poland' thing.

From my dealings they're more keen to punch on with the malays than the sings. one is a relative, the other a political irritant that can be tolerated. one doesn't train incessantly or have a "battle rhythm" focus in day to day military life - the other is ready to respond with overwhelming precision force to invite pause and caution. eg Do you want ti risk a 3 day war or a 3 month war? You sure as hell need to wrap up the 3 day event to get your leg in.

I'd add, that one side has better C4ISR than the other 2 combined - and in sheer military terms, is in a position to visit maximum violence and damage in 3 days. Basically everyone knows it and no one is really interested in testing the military theory. :)

[Monash]

Indonesia will never have the living standard of Singapore, that will make us comparable to... the US?

Militarily we are somewhat peculiar. Most of the military is a remnant of 1980 ABRI's territorial army structure. While the Kostrad, Marines and SFs are the equivalent of our modern army. The training and equipment varies as well depending on that segregation. Like for example, the Leo2s we just purchased are going to the Kostrad.

All three branches are going on a modernization process, albeit very slowly and painful. Because they haven't managed to shake up organizational structure and put professionalism in place (this is also dependent on the previous segregation, the more well trained forces are more professional), so this has an effect on procurement. Corruption in the military is still very prevalent as well.

A threat? Hardly, but if the economy keeps growing, the military will keep enjoying budget increase as well. Even with that TNI got its hand full of homework until 2020-2025 struggling to make itself contemporary to 1980 Western military standard.

The only game changer would be a big buy into Russian/Chinese arms, but we are so close to the US right now that it is a small possibility, and the US is careful not to upset the regional balance.

PG - assuming the kind of long time frame I was talking about i.e. 50-70 years I can't see any reason why with continued economic growth and political stability (Big assumptions I know) Indonesia cannot become another Asian "tiger" economy and joined the ranks of wealthy developed nations. It's people are just as hard working and ambitious for success as those of any other nation in the region however they do need right economic environment in which to prosper including - this includes good public and corporate governance.

[Bigfella]

Not really a valid comparison. :)

Wasn't really supposed to be. All good fun. :)

From my dealings they're more keen to punch on with the malays than the sings. one is a relative, the other a political irritant that can be tolerated. one doesn't train incessantly or have a "battle rhythm" focus in day to day military life - the other is ready to respond with overwhelming precision force to invite pause and caution. eg Do you want ti risk a 3 day war or a 3 month war? You sure as hell need to wrap up the 3 day event to get your leg in.

I'd add, that one side has better C4ISR than the other 2 combined - and in sheer military terms, is in a position to visit maximum violence and damage in 3 days. Basically everyone knows it and no one is really interested in testing the military theory. :)

Like I said, a shared dislike/irritation isn't exactly grounds for a combining of forces in some grand invasion.

Funnily enough, when I tried to explain this on these boards to a Singaporean who posted a breathless Straits Times article about the nation mobilizing to meet the threat of a combined Malaysian/Indonesian military exercise she got very huffy.

[chanjyj]

Funnily enough, when I tried to explain this on these boards to a Singaporean who posted a breathless Straits Times article about the nation mobilizing to meet the threat of a combined Malaysian/Indonesian military exercise she got very huffy.

You referring to that Amy woman? Lol.

But if you are referring to the Ex Malindo Darsasa 3AB/Pukul Habis incident on our National Day (Independence Day to the Americans) it was indeed something taken very seriously. While the civvies were enjoying the parade alot of things were going on behind the scenes. Ok. Enough OT on this thread.

[Bigfella]

You referring to that Amy woman? Lol.

Yes. For a grownup with a law degree she seemed awfully fragile. I've met one or two Singaporeans who couldn't stomach robust disagreement (and some who could), but she seemed an extreme case.

But if you are referring to the Ex Malindo Darsasa 3AB/Pukul Habis incident on our National Day (Independence Day to the Americans) it was indeed something taken very seriously. While the civvies were enjoying the parade alot of things were going on behind the scenes.

Don't recall specifics, but that was very possibly it. I think my point was that paying attention to is made sense, treating it as 'threat averted by swift action' - which was very much the tone of the PAP Times - was absurd.

Ok. Enough OT on this thread.

Awww. And we were having so much fun. Guess we just can't compete with that Brisbane nightlife.