Why Pakistan won't give up Hafiz Saeed

[lemontree]

Another insight into the Lashkar-e-Toiba relationship with the Pakistani society. These are inputs from a study carried out by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point -

Terror Group Recruits From Pakistan's 'Best and Brightest' - Sebastian Rotella, ProPublica - The Atlantic Wire

Imagine a terrorist group that recruits tens of thousands of young men from the same neighborhoods and social networks as the Pakistani military. A group whose well-educated recruits defy the idea that poverty and ignorance breed extremism. A group whose fighters include relatives of a politician, a senior Army officer and a director of Pakistan's Atomic Energy Commission.

That is the disconcerting reality of Lashkar-e-Taiba, one of the world's most dangerous militant organizations, according to a study released today by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y. The report helps explain why Pakistan has resisted international pressure to crack down on Lashkar after it killed 166 people in Mumbai — six U.S. citizens included — and came close to sparking conflict between nuclear-armed Pakistan and India.

.......

Lashkar was founded in 1989 by Hafiz Saeed, its spiritual chief today, and other ideologues. The ISI deployed Lashkar as a proxy force against India, especially in the disputed Kashmir region. Although banned by Pakistan in 2002, the group still functions unmolested, the ISI provides funds, military training and arms, and ISI officers serve as handlers for Lashkar chiefs, according to Western and Indian investigations. The U.S. officially declared Laskhar a terror group in 2001.

The West Point researchers said they used "massive amounts of material that the group produces about itself" to analyze the trajectories of Lashkar fighters who were killed between 1989 and 2008. The researchers translated from Urdu the 917 biographies that appeared in four extremist publications, including one written by mothers of fallen militants.

......

Recruits often become holy warriors with the help of their families, which admire Lashkar's military exploits in India and Afghanistan and its nationalism and social service activities at home, the study says. Unlike other terrorist groups, Lashkar does not attack the Pakistani state.

No wonder, the LeT is the darling of the Pakistani Army and Govt.

"These are some of Pakistan's best and brightest and they are not being used in the labor market, they are being deployed in the militant market," Fair said. "It's a myth that poverty and madrasas create terrorism, and that we can buy our way out of it with U.S. aid."

Now what can be said, about that!!

At least 18 fallen fighters had immediate family members who served in Pakistan's armed forces. Although most recruits were working or lower middle-class, some "had connections to elite Pakistani institutions and Pakistani religious leaders and politicians." The study cites Abdul Qasim Muhammad Asghar, son of the president of the Pakistan Muslim Leagueʹs labor wing in Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

Another case stands out: a fighter known by the nom de guerre of Abdul Razzaq Abu Abdullah. His 2003 obituary by his mother describes his maternal uncle as "a director of Pakistan's Atomic Energy Commission."

Does this mean we cannot even trust the educated, articulated Pakistani to be a rational being???

Lashkar is among the militant groups that use the tribal areas of Pakistan as a base for attacks on U.S. troops in neighboring Afghanistan, according to U.S. counterterror officials. Nonetheless, Fair said U.S. forces have not targeted Lashkar fighters in Pakistan with missile strikes out of concern that this would anger Pakistan, whose help is needed in Afghanistan. Instead, there are discussions of taking more aggressive action against Lashkar in other countries.

"We are essentially being held hostage by the war in Afghanistan," she said.

This gives a clear idea, what will happen after the US and NATO pull out of Afghanistan - the gloves will come off. Something that the Colonel has been saying all along.

[Deltacamelately]

To be fair,I welcome AM's perspective.He's pretty straight up,compared to others and it's always good to listen everybody.
What I said was not related to his person,but to the Pakistani establishment and particularly to the segment that listens to this ''we're victimimized by everybody'' tune.

There are a few individual exceptions in that country.They don't deserve what's coming,but life is tough.

Mihais,

I know where you are coming from and I concur 100%. In fact barring AM, nobody from the old SA WAB community came back to address these issues. In fact, we were getting clueless, until Zain(Did I recall right?) stepped back in. At least he believes he has a mandate.

Aside AM: You are lucky you get a free mind to analyse what you want. Your countrymen don't get that. And by Jove, we'll comeback, some of your countrymen have blood of mine one's, up their sleeves. Keeping Praying, That my politicos keep shitting more than your Generals.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir

I believe you are being unfair now. An Indian AM a 3 star officer states on record that IAF has earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan, Indian FM states that surgical strikes are an option, IA starts moving troops in the Rajasthan area and to top it all up IAF sends two packages on a 'cold run' to test PAF's response time and suck PAF's radar tracking signals. Pray tell me, is that not a threat that PA should have taken seriously? In my opinion, this is as high a threat can get considering the fact that it was coming from the highest echelons of the Indian Armed Forces.

Before PA activated contacts with friendly nations to receive additional hardware, it was the Indian diplomats that were running around in Western Capitals urging them to rein hell down on Pakistan. I am surprised how you missed this part. Your also way of the mark stating that PA Generals were 'shitting in there pants'. If that were true, PA would never have mobilized. Troops in Kharian, Multan, Lahore and Jhelum were put on 'Red Alert' and started mobilizing. PAF flew round the clock CAPS on the border bypassing the 10km buffer zone manoeuvring their birds right on the border, if that is your definition of 'shitting there pants', than we definitely differ on this point.

Don't kid yourself here. Anyone sitting on the defenses is always shitting in his pants ... and that includes those of us in NATO. The thing is once you're on the defensive, you yield the initiative to the enemy. You try to think of everything the bad guy would do and what could you do to counter it ... and you can't do everything, so you have to guess which would the bad guy do and put your bets on the proper counter.

The thing is ... what if the bad guy does something that you're not prepared for? You can planned for a tank assault but if the bad guy drops a brigade behind you? Or nuke your fall back position?

Until first contact where the enemy commits to his battle plan, you have absolutely no idea how, where, or when he's going to hit you ... and that wait is not pleasant, not pleasant at all.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Cross-posting from the other thread:

UN resolution doesn`t cover Saeed`s arrest: SC
By Nasir Iqbal

July 14th, 2009

ISLAMABAD, July 13 The Supreme Court observed here on Monday that a resolution of the United Nations Security Council had only clamped travel restrictions on Jamaatud Dawa (JUD) chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and not called for his imprisonment.

“There is nothing in the UN resolution to detain Hafiz Saeed, except putting travel restrictions,” observed Justice Jawwad S. Khawaja, a member of a three-judge bench hearing government`s appeal against the release of Mr Saeed who is accused of masterminding the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

The judge said putting a person in a sub-jail was not a travel restriction but incarceration and depriving him of personal liberty.

The bench comprising Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry, Justice Mohammad Sair Ali and Justice Khawaja was hearing appeals of the federal and Punjab governments against the June 2 Lahore High Court order of releasing Hafiz Saeed and another JUD leader, Col (retd) Nazir Ahmed.

Hafiz Saeed was arrested and JUD offices were closed a day after the organisation was declared a terrorist group by the UN. He was released by the LHC with an observation that there was no sufficient ground to detain and link Hafiz Saeed to the Mumbai attacks.

The Supreme Court repeatedly asked Punjab Advocate General Mohammad Raza Farooq to justify that the arrest of Hafiz Saeed under the West Pakistan Maintenance of Public Order (MPO) Ordinance 1961 was necessary because of his activities prejudicial to public safety and order.

However, the Punjab government failed to satisfy the court which held that it was not going to move an inch unless the counsel convinced it that the detention of JUD leaders was covered under the relevant law.

Mr Farooq tried to submit confidential reports of intelligence agencies to establish why it was necessary to put Hafiz Saeed behind bars and said a three-judge review board of the LHC had extended his detention by 60 days, but the court said this aspect of the case had been dealt with by the high court which had held that the reports had been prepared only to fill up lacunas.

Mr Raza also referred to an SRO (statutory regulatory order) issued by the Foreign Office in December 2008 as a follow-up to the UN resolution that had led to the detention of the two on Dec 12.

The court asked Mr Raza to go through Section 3 of the MPO under which the accused had been arrested with an observation that any order had to remain within the law and the Constitution.

The bench observed that Section 3 had not been incorporated into the initial notification of detention by the Lahore district coordination officer, on which Mr Raza conceded that the first order might have some procedural defects.

Mr Raza read out the high court decision which observed that not a single evidence or document had been presented by the government to establish Hafiz Saeed`s links with Al Qaeda or his involvement in terrorism.

The LHC had observed that the intelligence reports were not credible and Pakistan`s security laws were silent on Al Qaeda being a terrorist organisation.

The Supreme Court adjourned the matter for Tuesday, directing Deputy Attorney General (DAG) Shah Khawar and Hafiz Saeed`s counsel Advocate A.K. Dogar to present their formulations.

UN resolution doesn`t cover Saeed`s arrest: SC | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

US government statements following the announcement of a reward for information leading to HS's successful conviction support the Pakistani Courts judgments:

"Just to clarify, the $10 million is for information not about his location, but information that leads to an arrest or conviction," State Department spokesman Mark Toner told reporters Wednesday as the alleged mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai attacks taunted the US with a press meet in Rawalpindi.

"And this is information that could withstand judicial scrutiny, so I think what's important here is we're not seeking this guy's location. We all know where he is," he said when asked about the rationale of the reward.

Asked if he was suggesting that there is no information available to prosecute Saeed, Toner said: "There is information, there is intelligence that is not necessarily usable in a court of law."
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr...arifies-US.htm

[n21]

I can assure you, PA's Generals are more than confident in holding out an Indian invasion in a conventional battle. You don't need to take my word for it, just look at the deployments and the posture of PA and you will arrive at the same conclusion as i have. You should be more worried about whether your Generals believe that they can defeat PA, despite sabre rattling from your Generals, they haven't had the courage to attack Pakistan despite threatening to do so numerous times. Actions speak louder than words, clearly the actions are not speaking loud enough in this case.

There is a perception that nukes are what holds India back from an response to Pakistani actions. I say it is not. Pakistan's deterence is NOT the nukes, but it's instability. The world has lost track of who is killing whom in Pakistan. Even if Pakistan invites India to invade, India will NOT get it's feet in the swamp!

For India, it is a simple rule. A Pakistan which is not fighting India, will fight itself.

All India has to do is over spend Pakistan on defence budget, which the PA Generals will try to match by making it's citizens eat grass. And not give a chance to PA to unite the nation under the excuse of "threat from India".

This is what India has done for the past decade. And the result is for all to see.

And regarding the Afghanistan situation. Until US is around, Pakistan has an ally in the fight i.e the US. Once it leaves then all bets are off. India, Russia and Iran will fund and arm ANA to it's teeth and this time it will be done openly.The US is actually holding ANA back to not provoke PA. I am till date surprised that ANA has hardly any armour of any worth!

Even a 250K to 300K ANA armed with standard infantry weapons will require PA to divert large resources to guard against it. Then PA also needs to provide resources (man power, ammo, money etc) to Taliban to retake Afghanistan. Iran will start hitting back if attacks on Shia continues in Pakistan.Afghanistan for Taliban attacks. India might as well in the future.

So as Col said above, the bloodshed that will follow after 2014, will make the current situation look heavenly peace.