The enemy within

[S2]

GoingConcern Reply

"...I know this is a military-oriented board, but does the professionalism end once one leaves the armed forces?"

I've seen one military professional comment on this thread's topic-the original poster. He, btw, has considerable experience in Northern Ireland...and here among us. I'm entirely confident his private views expressed here would be irrelevant to the execution of his duties while he served...and he patently knows that. He is among friends and this, sir, is HIS pub, campfire and home. His unfettered views are entirely accepted if not uniformly endorsed. In short, he knows where and when his personal views are welcomed and encouraged.

You, on the other hand, are an outsider reaching gross generalizations about this community at large based upon a severely finite sampling...and within 11 posts. As such you appear lacking in the same discernment you demand of others. You've STILL failed to offer any introduction including bonafides that might remotely qualify your too-questionable observations. Were you completely accurate about the individuals whose comments you've found so offensive, you'd still miss the vast majority of our membership...and all they've collectively said poorly or well. That you're completely INACCURATE about their compassion and true worth to our board's discourse only compounds your poor etiquette.

As Cpt. Lukins said, "...Fools rush in where angels fear to tread..." seems all-too-apt regarding your foray here.

[Firestorm]

Birmingham's Muslim community did not inform police of terrorism plot

No-one in the Birmingham bomb plotters' own community tipped the police off with their concerns, despite finding out they were sending young men to terror training camps in Pakistan.

...

But at no point during the 18-month investigation by the West Midlands counter-terrorism unit did anyone in Birmingham's Muslim community inform on the behaviour of Irfan Naseer, Irfan Khalid and Ashik Ali, raising questions over the health of relations between officers and community leaders.
Naseer, Khalid and Ali street collecting in Stratford Road

This was despite the fact the families of four other young men recruited from Sparkhill all intervened to bring them back home the moment they found out the real reasons for them travelling to Pakistan.

"But it is a success story in that the families did bring those people back and it shows the vast majority of the community abhor terrorism in the same way we do."

Sure.

[Bigfella]

I will introduce myself when I feel ready to join the forum and its discussions. Despite the wealth of knowledge discussed in some threads, it seems like there are an equal amount mockery and disdain for any view that is not aligned to the overall atmosphere of the Forum. As a new member (in the shallow sense), some of the talk here sounds appalling, moreso due to the fact that it seems like it is supported by the senior members. I just wanted to know what the tone at the top was like at this forum; seems like I got it. It's not difficult to leave your campfire, but if I do, it will be with a very different image of your 'military professionals', 'senior contributors', and 'defense professionals'.

GoingConcern,

Most of what I plan to say has already been covered, but I'll say it in my own way anyway. if you plan to stay here I suggest you pay attention to some of the advice being offered.

First, introducing yourself on the introductions thread is a courtesy that is expected of ALL who post here. There are NO exceptions. I came here on the invitation of one of the most universally liked & respected posters on WAB. I still had to introduce myself. If you want to wait a while to decide if we are the sort of forum that interests you that is fine....just keep your opinions to yourself in the meantime.

Second, this is just one thread among many. If you want a true sense of us as a community read a lot more before you judge. Further, most people posting here have been doing so for some considerable time. They know each other & know when people are to be taken seriously & when not. They also know how much weight to give a particular view in the overall scheme of things. The only way you will earn the ability to make those judgements is to stay here a while & get engaged....after introducing yourself.

Third, yes, this is a board dominated by military professionals (which does not necessarily equate with actual military service). Their service to their nation is respected as are their views. That does not mean those views are correct or go unchallenged. The worth of people's views here are based on the knowledge they bring to an argument & their ability to present their case. Many senior posters here are not military professionals. They are accorded respect based on their contributions. My views generally sit to the left of the general lean of the board & well to the left of many indivduals. I frequently have strong & serious disagreements with people here. Sometimes I voice them, sometimes I don't bother - often because I have already had the arument before. I have never felt unwelcome here & have made freinds with some truly fine people hereabouts whose different experiences have broadened my perspective on the world. Stay a while & you may find the same.

Fourth, additional to the respect accorded people based on what they bring and what they have done, respect is accorded seniority. This is not a democracy. It is not an equal society. As the saying goes, respect is not given here, it is earned. No exceptions. I have seen military men sent packing, I have seen newbies flame out & burn, I have seen senior posters banned & I hace seen people learn, grow & gain respect. How you carry yourself will largely dictate your course here. If you can suck it up, read, learn & argue your case you will do well. if you get all hysterical the first time a senior poster tears a strip off you (or the 20th time for that matter) you won't last long.

Fifth, for the sort of forum this is the moderation is quite tight. Hang around for a while & you might find out how things work.

Now, you have started poorly here & it looks very much like you have already decided that we don't meet some standard you have set. If you have made that deliberation based on this thread alone then not only have I wasted my time, but you clearly aren't suited to this place. My bet is that you don't last, but I would like to be proven wrong. New voices & new views are always valuable if they can bring something to the table. Can you do that, or are you simply all about hasty judgements?

The next move is yours. Choose wisely.

[tankie]

I know much of what's said here is in jest, but at the same time, the prejudice and hate clearly oozes through. Terrorism certainly is not to be taken lightly, and I do see islamic extremism as a core threat that many countries face. But this dynamic is much more complex than us vs them, or good vs evil. The West has been meddling in foreign countries' affairs for decades. Now it's complaining about the fallout. But to talk of grouping an entire minority into one and deporting/eradicating them is unsettling to say the least. Especially from the military and defense professionals.

Hate for the perps will never cease , the minority you speak of is exactly what we are saying , the terrorists ,not the whole race .

[tankie]

[/B]A follow up , boy im glad these bastards were caught , rot in hell scum.[/B]

Birmingham terror plot trio had tools for 'biggest British terror attack in a generation' - Yahoo! News UK

[Minskaya]

I'm not here to earn respect. I'm here to see what the viewpoints of others who have had different experiences than I are like.

You could easily have sampled board viewpoints simply by remaining a guest and lurking. However, you willingly opted to go beyond that safe harbor and interact with this board. Kudos. We welcome new members and fresh insights. In return, we simply ask that newbies introduce themselves to the membership in the appropriate dedicated thread. Such basic courtesy is a minimalist expectation by any metric.

I know this is a military-oriented board, but does the professionalism end once one leaves the armed forces?

I would strongly suggest that you better familiarize yourself with the palette before grasping the broad brush.

[snapper]

I'm not here to earn respect. I'm here to see what the viewpoints of others who have had different experiences than I are like. I know this is a military-oriented board, but does the professionalism end once one leaves the armed forces?

If you have not come here to earn respect through the coherency of your arguments then you have misunderstood the rules of membership. Disagreeing is fine but state why.

[Officer of Engineers]

I will introduce myself when I feel ready to join the forum and its discussions.

Frankly, I don't care. Your ass is gone. Good riddance.

[lemontree]

:pop:...GC is the second chap I see getting buggered in the past one month....and I always miss the fun.:slap:

[Loke]

The problem is they've declared war on the innocent and contributing members of the society that raised, educated, feed. clothed and sheltered them. They want to kill the people walking down the street, going about their daily business, trying to live, people they don't even know. They have whipped up a ridiculous “religious” reason to do this, so what? There is a good reason to efficiently execute them, as soon as they are identified, tried, and found guilty. Why spend our treasure to support them? Why risk having them escape or be freed by do-gooders who believe they personally have no stake in the problem? Perhaps the ones who want to let them go imagine they are now the “friends” of these monsters? That they and their families and friends will be safe because they helped them? So the murderous terrorists can succeed at their vile murderous plans? Whats the message? Get caught, be called a hero by your filthy peers and retire comfortably, on our savings? :bang:

Its high treason and worse, its random premeditated murder of your nations's citizens, including the children. When wasn't this a capital crime? In the past they would have been viciously cut down on sight like a pack of wild dogs in a nursery. Why are we now squeamish about dealing permanently with terrorists trying to kill our families and communities wholesale, with explosives? If it feels better morally, pack them in their dumpsters with one (or how ever many it takes) of their own explosive devices embedded in the middle of it. The dumpsters can even be be buried in a nice safe quarry to contain any shrapnel that makes it through their carcases. I personally think the certainty of a reliable, guaranteed bullet in the head (if this one fails, you get a fresh new one right away) is better than they have to offer, a kindness - fast, precise and painless - unlike the viscous maiming and randomness of their intended mass murders. :puck:

Who cares what inner strife or pathetic angst drove these terrorists to this? So what? They need to be stopped, and their breathing mechanism is the most effective thing to stop, to protect their would be victims, who could be kids, babies, you, your neighbors or their prison guards or even their own families.

Demonizing these people does make things simpler doesn't it.

The ABB case in Norway I think did open a few eyes here in Norway (but not as many as one could have hoped for).

ABB was a terrorist that no doubt, had he grown up in a different environment, would have become an islamist terrorist attacking "the West"; however he did not and instead he ended up in the opposite camp, but nevertheless a terrorist.

What became evidently clear during the trial is the the guy is mentally very ill. There was a lot of discussions around whether he was insane in a Legal sense, or just insane according to a more "common" understanding of the word. The important distinction being of course that if he was insane in the Legal sense he cannot (in Norway) be put in prison but would be put in an asylum for treatment.

Two different groups of experts observed and analyzed him, and reached different conclusions. The judge in the end ruled his insanity to not be of such a nature that he could avoid prison, and he was sentenced to prison.

This made me wonder; how many of the other terrorists (islamists, right-wing, left-wing or whatever) have serious mental problems? My guess is that most of them do. Curiously this is something that is hardly ever mentioned or discussed in particular in the "war on terror".

I believe that modern society needs many different mechanisms for handling terrorist threats, and unfortunately it seems we end up focusing on a few, terminal ones. Which I think is a pity.

One may wonder, had ABB received treatment and expert support during his childhood, perhaps he would have ended up having a job and a "normal" life today. He was examined by psychologists when he was a child, so alarm clocks were ringing already at that time... for some reason it was decided to not follow up with intervention/treatment and he and his single mother were left to sort out their problems on their own. We will never know of course if it would have changed him sufficiently to avoid the disaster that struck Norway 22 July 2011.

[Dante]

Loke, would it make any difference to the end result if any of the islamic terrorists, or in fact any terrorist, were insane? I feel no pity for a terrorist who goes out to kill people because the little voices in his head told him so, nor for the one who thinks 72 virgins are waiting in paradise. I could maybe blame the authorities for failing to stop him, if there were enough pointers to his intentions , but not for failing to ensure that every would be killer receives proper treatment- an impossible task. What I would want is justice.

I hope I don't offend with this but ABB should have not been taken alive and allowed to become somewhat of a celebrity. Besides being dangerous, as in other nuts might follow his example to reach fame, it's also disgusting that he continues to breathe, in ok conditions, while others do not..

[Firestorm]

This made me wonder; how many of the other terrorists (islamists, right-wing, left-wing or whatever) have serious mental problems? My guess is that most of them do. Curiously this is something that is hardly ever mentioned or discussed in particular in the "war on terror".

This is our way of rationalizing what these people do, because we find it unbelievable that religious or ideological indoctrination can be strong enough to make a perfectly sane person commit mass murder. The sad truth is that it can be and is. Were all Nazis insane? No. Neither are the Islamic terrorists, or Anders Brevik.

[astralis]

Loke,

This made me wonder; how many of the other terrorists (islamists, right-wing, left-wing or whatever) have serious mental problems? My guess is that most of them do. Curiously this is something that is hardly ever mentioned or discussed in particular in the "war on terror".

I believe that modern society needs many different mechanisms for handling terrorist threats, and unfortunately it seems we end up focusing on a few, terminal ones. Which I think is a pity.

this is a common fallacy: to treat terrorists like criminals.

terrorists have a political agenda, and are willing to use force to achieve this agenda. the proper response to this is not to treat them as social deviants or people breaking the law, but as enemy combatants.

that some of the terrorists are heavily indoctrinated or indeed have sociopathic/psychopathic disorders is ancillary to the fact that their leaders are certainly conducting a rational war to get what they want, and thereby meaningless.

[USSWisconsin]

Insanity takes a wide variety of forms. Some are head shaking, tear bringing, sad cases - the insane person is the victim, the people who care about them suffer too. Society has a problem, and medical treatment is the best hope.

Then there are these monsters, they are dangerous - they make me want to reach for my gun, or a keelhauling hook.
Again society has a problem, but self defense is the only hope - trying to preserve and maintain these poisonous things among us is suicidal, IMO.

Nazi and Islamic terrorists seem to be a special mass insanity case. We fought a world war with the Nazi's, who had seized control of a whole county - they were quite clear about what they wanted to do with the rest of us.

Islamic terrorists are a stateless gang of criminals, God or Allah is just a beard for their murderous ways, whether or not they really believe their rhetoric is questionable. Many violate their own alleged laws and beliefs, drinking, gambling and whoring before they "go off" on society. IMO, they are much worse than Nazi's. They are hipocrits and liars, I truly believe the Nazi's believed in what they were doing ideologically - I question whether the Islamic terrorists believe in what they claim too. It is harder to go to war with these stateless "things" - but killing them before they can do what they would do for us is something I don't see as an option - I have loved ones who I would die to protect - and these monsters are clearly worthy of my bullets and shells. While there still are some Nazi's out there - I don't see them as dangers of the same magnitude.

Insane? Sure, Treatable? Nope, only stopable. In the words of General William T. Sherman - "Kill'em - Kill'em all". They label themselves as Islamists - but I see them as terrorists, God has nothing to do with it - it is brain damage- unfixable, and only stoppable with deadly force.

Islam is a religion, like it or not, its a large religion - I've known many Muslims - the ones I know personally are not terrorists, and are mostly good people. They are no better or worse than most people. The fact than there are bad ones is consistant with most other large groups - plenty of bad "whatever". Many murders call themselves Christians, and there are bad people claiming to be part of every religion that I've ever heard of. For the most part, the valid, functional leaders of these religions don't accept these insane criminals as representative members their faith. They may be members of criminal cartels or gangs - but the leaders of these groups are crime bosses not "holy" men.

Like any onther criminal, these terrorists need to be judged individually. Lumping people together before judgement, not seeing them individually, grasping at one charactoristic or self proclaimed affiliation; is a sign of mental weakness. If a person can't look at all the facts, see the the individuals for what they are - then, IMO, they are incompetent to make any judgements.

[Minskaya]

Lately we had commies(ohh,thank you Uncle Joe,our liberator) and right now we have the blessings their sons and daughters spread upon us.

Roosevelt and Churchill oftentimes referred to Stalin as "Uncle Joe" in their transatlantic cables. In order to facilitate a personal relationship with Stalin in both Tehran and Yalta, FDR let Stalin in on this little secret. Although he never expressed displeasure at this in front of Roosevelt, Stalin was deeply offended. The Russian word for uncle - dyadya - has a connotation that implies an old man who can easily be manipulated.