Originally posted by anil
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What if Nixon Succeeded
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Originally posted by anil View PostThe objective was fulfilledsigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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From the Soviet perspective, they won.
The Cuban Missile Crisis - it was a tit for tat. Missiles were withdrawn from Turkey.
Arab-Israeli War - Israel chickened out.
Bay of Bengal - the USS ENTERPRISE was deterred (yes, yes, that's not what happened but Moscow didn't know that, all they saw was that their task force stopped the Americans cold).
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostFrom the Soviet perspective, they won.
The Cuban Missile Crisis - it was a tit for tat. Missiles were withdrawn from Turkey.
Arab-Israeli War - Israel chickened out.
Bay of Bengal - the USS ENTERPRISE was deterred (yes, yes, that's not what happened but Moscow didn't know that, all they saw was that their task force stopped the Americans cold).
Sino-Soviet conflict - America won.
Cuban Missile crisis - A draw because US was getting its submarine ICBMs and Soviets were not getting its submarine ICBMs until much later and US was going to withdraw the missiles from Turkey anyway so US technically still had the upper hand.
Bay of Bengal - a Soviet victory.
So the final tally - one win, 2 losses, one draw. Not good winning percentage.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostArab-Israeli War - Soviets won??
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSino-Soviet conflict - America won.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostCuban Missile crisis - A draw because US was getting its submarine ICBMs and Soviets were not getting its submarine ICBMs until much later and US was going to withdraw the missiles from Turkey anyway so US technically still had the upper hand.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSo the final tally - one win, 2 losses, one draw. Not good winning percentage.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAnd became easy targets for American subs since now we know where the Soviet boomers were headed and mapped out their sonar characteristics.
Cuba offerred such a staging ground. USN task groups would have to blast their way through the destroyer screens in Cuba before they can get to the boomers.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostYou forget how Soviet boomers were to operate. A destroyer screen pinging the hell out of nearby waters, forcing USN task groups to blast their way through that screen before they can get to the boomer which by that time, already tossed her nukes.
Cuba offerred such a staging ground. USN task groups would have to blast their way through the destroyer screens in Cuba before they can get to the boomers.
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostWho cares after the nukes are lobed?
Even more so, you could position an THAAD equipped Aegis destroyer to take out the missiles as they are being launched and have not reached their maximum velocity.
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Originally posted by anil View PostWhy did they back down?
Hand Nixon moved rapidly in 71 the Soviets would have backed down and left India hanging. India would have backed down too. Yankee Station was too close and Yankee Station had a good chunk of the US 17 carriers (12 large/super carriers, 5 Essex angled deck CV, 1 CVN) and 27 mostly gun cruisers. Some of the carriers would ahve to remain on Yankee Station but not all of them so there was nearby help for the Big-E. In addition there was a large force of B-52's in Thailand.
Given that against Pakistan alone the IAF suffered 10% losses to its pre-war strength in just 2 weeks. Add in USAF/USN/USMC aircraft to the mix which, with the exception of the Mig-21 totally outclassed everything India had.... Not a war India could win.
But to win it, Nixon had to be winning to eat higher ground losses in Vietnam as carriers left the area, the chance that the Soviets would send even more and different SAMs to Vietnam or stir up North Korea and a risk of cooling relations with China if the US was seen by the Chinese leadership as endangering China. Finally, to beat India, Nixon had to be willing to take his lumps in the street protests and Congressional debates inside America itself and he wasn't. Pakistan, then as now was a vassal not an ally.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostBecause the Soviets thought we were serious about popping atomic tops and starting a deadman's party where everyone was invited. They called us Cowboys, but Cowboys with a history of slaughtering our enemies on a truly massive scale and no real personal experience of what it was like to be on the receiving end. The Soviets were terrified of us and were absolutely convinced that we were willing to fight a nuclear war. They never were, not against us. Every time push came to shove- Israel, China, Cuba, Turkey the Soviets backed down as soon as it looked like America was going all in.
Hand Nixon moved rapidly in 71 the Soviets would have backed down and left India hanging. India would have backed down too. Yankee Station was too close and Yankee Station had a good chunk of the US 17 carriers (12 large/super carriers, 5 Essex angled deck CV, 1 CVN) and 27 mostly gun cruisers. Some of the carriers would ahve to remain on Yankee Station but not all of them so there was nearby help for the Big-E. In addition there was a large force of B-52's in Thailand.
Given that against Pakistan alone the IAF suffered 10% losses to its pre-war strength in just 2 weeks. Add in USAF/USN/USMC aircraft to the mix which, with the exception of the Mig-21 totally outclassed everything India had.... Not a war India could win.
But to win it, Nixon had to be winning to eat higher ground losses in Vietnam as carriers left the area, the chance that the Soviets would send even more and different SAMs to Vietnam or stir up North Korea and a risk of cooling relations with China if the US was seen by the Chinese leadership as endangering China. Finally, to beat India, Nixon had to be willing to take his lumps in the street protests and Congressional debates inside America itself and he wasn't. Pakistan, then as now was a vassal not an ally.
Despite your belief in US, US is not the omnipotent power as you make it out to be.
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