India and Pakistan in Kashmir border skirmish

[Tronic]

I was going to be appalled by this ... but then I remember when this forum cheered when a Gurkha took back a Taliban head ...

Col, I'll admit, after watching countless videos put out by perverse AQ and Talib chaps beheading defenceless civilians, it would've been quite hard not to applaud the favour being returned.

[anil]

I don't get their love for body mutilations and beheadings? They have a bad habit of this. Maybe it's time to send in the Paras and pay them back in kind.

I don't think so. Why should the indian military behave like them?

The best way to pay them back is to assist the afghan taliban with intelligence and support to raid a few pakistani posts on the afghan-pakistan border. The pakistanis will never know it was us. I'm sure the americans play that game themselves.

[kuku]

Everytime a indian soldier is captured by pakistani forces, they are killed and their bodies are returned mutilated, beheaded.
I think it is clear that that is what Pakistani military will always do.

So how is this handled, will the Indian army now target and kill pakistani soldiers near the border? what will be a measured/equal/appropriate-response to this?

[kuku]

I don't think so. Why should the indian military behave like them?

The best way to pay them back is to assist the afghan taliban with intelligence and support to raid a few pakistani posts on the afghan-pakistan border. The pakistanis will never know it was us. I'm sure the americans play that game themselves.

Why not just target a pakistani patrol? send a force to kill a Pakitani patrol or two?

[anil]

Why not just target a pakistani patrol? send a force to kill a Pakitani patrol or two?

It will be a waste of time, money and resources since it can never go completely through.

How many times has the indian army defeated the pakistani military? Yet the PA keeps coming back asking for another fight. It says that india will have to kill them(PA) completely if it wants to settle it once and for all.

The catch here is that india cannot obliterate the PA without inviting the rage from the US and chinese military. The PA knows this and hence it is confident that indians can never open a conventional attack on the pakistanis.

To prevent an american intervention, india will have to show that it has the capability to kill a few dozen million on CONUS since that is the only way to stop the americans. Back in 1971, the russians developed cold feet when the time came to face off with the americans.

[DPrime]

The catch here is that india cannot obliterate the PA without inviting the rage from the US and chinese military. The PA knows this and hence it is confident that indians can never open a conventional attack on the pakistanis.

To prevent an american intervention, india will have to show that it has the capability to kill a few dozen million on CONUS since that is the only way to stop the americans. Back in 1971, the russians developed cold feet when the time came to face off with the americans.

I wonder how long that will remain so, once we're completely out of Afghanistan and can stop pretending that Pakistan is our ally in the "war on terrorism" (which no one really believes anyway).

China though, well... yeah. :)

[troung]

When America leaves Afghanistan I guess India will have to find a new reason for not obliterating Pakistan.

Head of Indian Army soldier, barbarically decapitated by Pakistani troops, still missing
Ads by Google
|
Print
PTI : Rajouri/New Delhi, Wed Jan 09 2013, 21:33 hrs
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/head- ... /1056941/0

The Indian Army today said both the soldiers killed during an attack by Pakistani troops across the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir were decapitated and that one severed head was yet to be recovered.

"The bodies of two soldiers were brutalised--one head was severed and another body was beheaded... It (the head of one of jawan) has not being recovered --probably they have taken it along with them", Deputy Commander of the 25 Division Brigadier J K Tiwari told reporters in Rajouri.

The Army had not been able to recover the head of Lance Naik Sudhakar Singh, he said. Singh was killed along with Lance Naik Hemraj in yesterday's unprovoked attack in Medhar area in Poonch sector.

The Army yesterday said one of the two bodies was mutilated while other sources said the heads of both the Indian soldiers have been chopped off and that one was taken away by Pakistani intruders.

According to Army sources in Delhi, the Pakistan Army regulars who were involved in the attack wore black uniforms and they had slit the throats of both the soldiers in a brutal manner and that the bodies were badly mutilated.

Giving details about the incident, Tiwari said eight soldiers belonging to the 13 Rajputana Rifles were carrying out Area Domination Patrolling (ADP) in two escort parties including 6 jawans on back side and two on the front about 600 metres inside the LoC.

Army officials said the fence on the LoC in that particular area in Krishna Ghati is built 2 Kms inside Indian territory and the Pakistani troops did not have to cross the obstacle to enter Indian territory.

Then men wearing black clothes, suspected to be from the Pakistani Special Forces, took benefit of the thick fog and dense forests and laid ambush, Tiwari said, adding that they fired on patrol party and fire fight continued for 30 minutes.

There were also reports that the Pakistani troops belonged to 29 Baloch regiment.

"After the firing stopped, patrol parties moved ahead and came acoss the two dead jawans in a mutilated condition", he said. The incident took place near the Sona Gali area close to the LoC.

The Mendhar area has been the hub of ceasefire violations and cross-border firings in the last one year with close to 90 such incidents.

The area is known as the Barasingha battalion area and is under the overall command of the 10 brigade of the Indian Army

Livid India plans payback: Army readies tough reply to Pakistan after soldiers are killed and brutally beheaded on Line of Control

By Saurabh Shukla and Gautam Dutt

PUBLISHED: 18:02 EST, 9 January 2013 | UPDATED: 18:02 EST, 9 January 2013

Comments (0)
Share

India on Wednesday raised the pitch of its protests against the beheading of one of its jawans on the Line of Control (LOC) by accusing Pakistan of violating the rules of engagement for civilized, professional armies.

Top army sources told Mail Today there was anger in the army's rank and file which needed to be addressed. The immediate fallout of the gruesome incident was a strong political and diplomatic action, but a military response was also not ruled out.

Officially, though, the mandate was to ease tension. As the fragile Indo-Pak peace process hit the beheading roadblock, India took Pakistan to task with a stern message from foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai to Pakistan's high commissioner Salman Bashir.
Army officers and Jawans pay tribute to the martyred soldiers in Rajouri on Wednesday

Army officers and Jawans pay tribute to the martyred soldiers in Rajouri on Wednesday

Bashir was summoned to South Block with a strong demarche telling him that the incident was unacceptable. Mathai told Bashir that the incident was against all international norms and Pakistan must investigate the matter seriously and share the details with India. What followed was a veiled threat that such incidents should not recur or it will have an adverse impact on bilateral ties.

External affairs minister Salman Khurshid said: "We have conveyed that this is unacceptable, our intent has been conveyed very clearly. We cannot allow for escalation of an unwholesome incident."
Tougher language
over and over again

Highly placed sources told Mail Today that some officials wanted tougher language used in the note verbale against Pakistan but they were told to calm down at the behest of the PMO, which didn't want to escalate the matter.

During his meeting with Bashir, Mathai jogged his memory and told him that barely a fortnight ago experts of both countries had met in New Delhi on December 27, 2012 to discuss conventional Confidence Building Measures, of which maintaining the sanctity of the LOC was one of the most important.

Sources said the defence minister and the national security adviser Shivshankar Menon briefed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on the ceasefire violation and killing of two soldiers and a range of options were discussed.

Contrary to public posturing, the Indian Army and its troops on the frontline are seething at the barbaric and uncalled-for conduct of some Pakistani soldiers. Army sources said this kind of behaviour in this day and age will not be tolerated.

A section of the top army leadership wants a fitting response, but given the fragile relationship where the neighbours have gone to war several times in the past, mature heads have asked for calm.

The army's top brass, aware of the overriding sentiment, is preparing a systematic action plan which will be revealed in greater detail over time. Surveillance along the LoC has been heightened as part of this strategic imperative, meaning no quarter will be given if acts like these are repeated.

The Army may group special forces in key sectors where Pakistani troops used fog cover to carry out the incursion and subsequent killings.

The Indian Army suspects a larger play at work behind the brazen cross-border attack and the beheading of a soldier. Highly-placed sources confirmed to Mail Today that the army chief has instructed one of his subordinates to prepare an assessment report on this incident. The report will also consider the looming retirement of General Kayani, who is already on an extension.

It is felt that this attack was pre-planned and that the Pakistani Army is upping the ante because of General Kayani's reluctance to retire and its armed establishment coming under increased political scrutiny.
Objectionable

Sources said the Indian Army feel the attack wasn't perpetrated by Pakistani regulars but by the much-feared Pakistani Special Service Group (SSG), the counterpart of India's special forces.

Defence minister A.K Antony, who was briefed about the incident by army chief Gen. Bikram Singh, termed the killings "highly objectionable". A hotline between the directors general of military operations (DGMOs) of the Indian and Pakistani armies was then activated.

Indian DGMO Lt-Gen. Vinod Bhatia lodged a protest with his counterpart Lt-Gen. Ishfaq Nadim Ahmed, holding the Pakistani army directly responsible for the aggression.

The two officers spoke for over 12 minutes at 10am, during which Lt- Gen. Nadim Ahmed flatly denied the incident took place at all.

"India lodged a strong protest giving details of the incident. We also conveyed to him that this action has been carried out by regular troops of the Pakistan Army," said an Indian Army spokesperson, adding that "strong protest was also lodged against the mutilation of body (of one of the soldiers) which was a grave violation of the rules of engagement of any civilised, professional army".

The Pakistani DGMO neither asked for any proof nor proposed to investigate the issue as he refused to accept India's claim. The Indian side sought an investigation by Pakistan, but received no response. The voices from Islamabad, however, said the incident should be probed by the United Nations Military Observer Group based on either side of Jammu and Kashmir. The Indian Army rejected this outright.

'Ceasefire violation is a routine affair'

By Shiv Aroor in Mendhar

There is anger written all over the faces of the officers and jawans over the beheading and mutilation of two of their men here along the line of control.

An angry officer said the ceasefire agreement reached between the two countries in 2003 "was not worth the paper it was signed on" as the Pakistan Army routinely violates the agreement through firing and shelling.

Hours after Tuesday's incident in which Pakistani troops entered Indian territory and killed two Indian soldiers, intense firing continued till Wednesday morning. An officer said there was heavy fire all through the night.

Although the troops are ready for a tit-for-tat response, the message they got from New Delhi on Wednesday was not to escalate the tension as the matter was being taken up at the diplomatic level.

The Indian government's response has distressed the rank and file here. An officer said the ceasefire agreement was a joke as the Pakistan Army routinely flouts the agreement.

The officer revealed that there are 60 to 70 violations every year. He said flag meetings between the two armies along the Line of Control (LoC) and diplomatic talks served no purpose as nothing changes for the Pakistan Army.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome...#ixzz2HWxzVnNb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[kuku]

When America leaves Afghanistan I guess India will have to find a new reason for not obliterating Pakistan.

The last time America left Afghanistan, we had a tough time dealing with all the crazy muslim people in the neighbourhood shifting their attention to Kashmir.
I hope that does not happen, however yes the sad truth is that these men will never put down their guns and go start working in a factory or a field, atleast not in our lifetimes.

[lemontree]

For reports that I'm getting,...both the bodies were mutilated and one was beheaded.

[Tronic]

The best way to pay them back is to assist the afghan taliban with intelligence and support to raid a few pakistani posts on the afghan-pakistan border. The pakistanis will never know it was us. I'm sure the americans play that game themselves.

Since we don't share a similar perspective on most things, I try not to comment to avoid constantly locking horns at ever corner, but since you quoted me, I think this idea of yours is terrible for several reasons.

The obvious one, the Talibani bigots will come knocking at your door once they're done with Pakistan. Second, if you're going to hit Pakistan, than they have to know that they are being hit by you. Killing Pakistanis is not the point. The point is to make it expensive for Pakistan to keep trying to screw around with India.

I would put a price tag on such acts and make sure Pakistan pays. Escalate the situation, start a buildup, and let loose the big guns. The point is to make Pakistan pay financially. The 2001 standoff cost India and Pakistan billions. A couple billion is easier for a $1.85 trillion USD market with sound financial reserves to absorb than it is for a bankrupt Pakistan. Make such acts expensive.

[Tronic]

The last time America left Afghanistan, we had a tough time dealing with all the crazy muslim people in the neighbourhood shifting their attention to Kashmir.

It wasn't the "crazies" that shifted their attention; it were the totally sane and calculative Pakistani generals who let loose their dogs in Kashmir.

(plus, the early Kashmiri secessionists weren't really "crazy Muslims" but they were sidelined and their platform was hijacked by Pakistani sponsored Islamists).

[cataphract]

Since we don't share a similar perspective on most things, I try not to comment to avoid constantly locking horns at ever corner, but since you quoted me, I think this idea of yours is terrible for several reasons.

The obvious one, the Talibani bigots will come knocking at your door once they're done with Pakistan. Second, if you're going to hit Pakistan, than they have to know that they are being hit by you. Killing Pakistanis is not the point. The point is to make it expensive for Pakistan to keep trying to screw around with India.

I would put a price tag on such acts and make sure Pakistan pays. Escalate the situation, start a buildup, and let loose the big guns. The point is to make Pakistan pay financially. The 2001 standoff cost India and Pakistan billions. A couple billion is easier for a $1.85 trillion USD market with sound financial reserves to absorb than it is for a bankrupt Pakistan. Make such acts expensive.

The 2001 buildup was far more expensive for India than for Pakistan - we even managed to kill our own soldiers when doing so (Btw how did 400 soldiers die simply during the buildup without a single shot fired?!)

We need to keep Pakistan on the boil on the western border, overtly or covertly. Create just enough insurgency to keep Pakistan unstable but not enough to let the Taliban win.

[Tronic]

The 2001 buildup was far more expensive for India than for Pakistan

We spent around $3 billion, Pakistan spent around $1.4 billion. If you look at proportionality, they got hit much harder.

- we even managed to kill our own soldiers when doing so (Btw how did 400 soldiers die simply during the buildup without a single shot fired?!)

Yes, that is ridiculous. Apparently, they died laying mines?

We need to keep Pakistan on the boil on the western border, overtly or covertly. Create just enough insurgency to keep Pakistan unstable but not enough to let the Taliban win.

But than you have to keep taking hits like this one, and 26/11.

[cataphract]

We spent around $3 billion, Pakistan spent around $1.4 billion. If you look at proportionality, they got hit much harder.



Yes, that is ridiculous. Apparently, they died laying mines?

Can some of our IA veterans on the forum shed light on what exactly killed 400 soldiers during Op Parakram?

But than you have to keep taking hits like this one, and 26/11.

Terrorist attacks have decreased in India since they started in earnest in Pakistan. Perhaps we need to turn the heat up a little more.

[kuku]

It wasn't the "crazies" that shifted their attention; it were the totally sane and calculative Pakistani generals who let loose their dogs in Kashmir.

(plus, the early Kashmiri secessionists weren't really "crazy Muslims" but they were sidelined and their platform was hijacked by Pakistani sponsored Islamists).

that would be the 'crazy muslim neighbours' we have, the 'we kill in the name of god' brigade and the generals (the great generals who drink water and vomit alcohol)....
sometimes its tough to tell them apart...