PBS Show on the "Ulfbreht" Viking Swords--Highly Recommended.

[Triple C]

I think the producers might not have done their homework. Late plate armor's main protective zones are not supposed to be penetrable by any hand weapon except a pole arm. Longswords for the field are not supposed to flex like it was shown in the video. Besides... aren't you supposed to post it in sumarai v. knights thread?

[zraver]

I think the producers might not have done their homework. Late plate armor's main protective zones are not supposed to be penetrable by any hand weapon except a pole arm. Longswords for the field are not supposed to flex like it was shown in the video. Besides... aren't you supposed to post it in sumarai v. knights thread?

A ;ate medieval long sword is not a viking longsword either.

[citanon]

A ;ate medieval long sword is not a viking longsword either.

Ok, I think some forum members' sarcasm detectors are malfunctioning.

Seriously, would be fun to see them try that with the PBS Viking sword. With the indent in the center it should be pretty rigid and penetrate well. Of course, abusing his sword thus might make that poor blacksmith cry.

[zraver]

Ok, I think some forum members' sarcasm detectors are malfunctioning.

Seriously, would be fun to see them try that with the PBS Viking sword. With the indent in the center it should be pretty rigid and penetrate well. Of course, abusing his sword thus might make that poor blacksmith cry.

Use a modern reproduction using modern steel which would be akin to an Ulfbrecht sword anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiQUUlOwWcY

As for Ernie and locked and loaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mik6Ghy9kYs

[Triple C]

The trade networks were setup earlier in the Bronze age, Tin came from the east. Copper was not readily available either. Its ironic how much is said against globalisation in the contemporary era but its been going on for thousands of years already.

Was listening to a show on the dawn of the iron age yesterday and its surprising how the shift to iron happened and people cannot understand why it did not happen earlier. Iron is readily available in comparison to copper & Tin and in many ways much better.

Oh, good point!

What are the technological impediments to iron refining? One of Diamond's arguments in Guns, Germs and Steel is that leaps that bypass a stage in the typical progression of technology does not happen because one stage of tech usually creates the surplus population (and I'd argue societal impetus) towards the next. However, I am also given to understand that early, low quality iron tools might be wholly inferior to good bronze. Perhaps the knowledge to make good bronze tools are crucial in the creation of adequate iron tools that would justify the investment of time and resources?

[Chogy]

However, I am also given to understand that early, low quality iron tools might be wholly inferior to good bronze.

Apparently, some of the very earliest iron implements were very hit or miss, but those that were a "hit" were considered almost magical, able to cleave and shatter bronze. Called "The black metal", seeing your opponent pull one from a sheathe while you were armed with a crappy issue bronze sword would be pretty discouraging.

It's fun to imagine the very earliest iron smelters as being part of a super-secret guild. Giving up the secret would probably be punishable by death. I'd guess that early iron production for a nation then was like today's nuclear technology in importance and secrecy.

[zraver]

Apparently, some of the very earliest iron implements were very hit or miss, but those that were a "hit" were considered almost magical, able to cleave and shatter bronze. Called "The black metal", seeing your opponent pull one from a sheathe while you were armed with a crappy issue bronze sword would be pretty discouraging.

Hrmmm.... I find that may be apocryphal since Bronze is a much stronger metal than iron or pattern steel. Hell modern Bronze is often stronger than modern steel. Its just a lot heavier and less flexible.

But a guy with a short heavy bronze sword facing a guy with an iron sword would be like a guy with a hammer trying to fence against a guy with an epee.

It's fun to imagine the very earliest iron smelters as being part of a super-secret guild. Giving up the secret would probably be punishable by death. I'd guess that early iron production for a nation then was like today's nuclear technology in importance and secrecy.

Its been speculated that the secret of the Philistines against ancient Israel was the use of iron weapons vs Jewish bronze, copper, stone and bone.

[zraver]

Oh, good point!

What are the technological impediments to iron refining? One of Diamond's arguments in Guns, Germs and Steel is that leaps that bypass a stage in the typical progression of technology does not happen because one stage of tech usually creates the surplus population (and I'd argue societal impetus) towards the next. However, I am also given to understand that early, low quality iron tools might be wholly inferior to good bronze. Perhaps the knowledge to make good bronze tools are crucial in the creation of adequate iron tools that would justify the investment of time and resources?

Copper and Tin and can be cold or warm worked, Iron has to be hot worked which implies a longer lead time and learning curve.
Social Status- if the major powers and trend setters are using bronze, the natural tendency is to assume bronze is the cat's meow.
Iron is a weaker metal than bronze and won't hold an edge as well as flint.
The main centers of the earliest Iron working were not major trade centers and lacked economy of scale.

[Chogy]

Metallurgy is more than just stength. Hardness is a critical factor, and that is where the early iron and steel shines vs. bronzes.

Strength: A modern phosphor bronze has a yield of ~ 40 to 128 KPSI. I'd give an early bronze, a good one for the time, 50 KPSI in tension, 40 in shear. C1018 is a low carbon steel, a mild steel, about as weak as steel can be. Those numbers become ~ 70 KPSI for tension, so the two are similar.

Hardness is a different matter. Bronze = ~65 Brinell, 1018 Steel, ~ 167 Add carbon, which is inevitable with the early forging process, and the hardness goes through the roof. If properly tempered, the iron sword is going to keep its edge. Cu alloys are not even hardenable. What you get out of the smelter is all there is.

If the early sword is unworked cast iron, it's going to be extremely hard but also too brittle for combat.

In the end, a decent steel/iron sword is going to grossly outperform anything made of bronze.

[xinhui]

Simply the best tv show on the subject of swords that I have ever seen.

You can watch the full episode here, free of charge, on pbs. Video: Secrets of the Viking Sword | Watch NOVA Online | PBS Video

"Ulfberht" swords are rare Viking swords that bore the Latin characters and crosses, +Ulfbreht+. Recently, it was discovered by archaeologists that those blades were not pattern-welded as once believed, but made of crucible steel, utilizing metallurgical techniques that was unknown in Europe until the 18th century. The swords contained no slag pockets like other contemporary weapons, and possessed three times the carbon content. In laymen terms, crucible steel can pass as an OK modern steel and totally outperforms what other Europeans would have at the time. The show extrapolates possible ways crucible steel was made, how it was acquired by the Vikings, and how Viking blacksmiths worked on the material.

Very cool stuff. Not to be political, but to be political--PBS beats the hell out of for History Channel or Discovery.

History Channel or Discovery = low budget reality TV.


Thanks for this, can't believe I missed this program when it was on air.

[xinhui]

I think the producers might not have done their homework. Late plate armor's main protective zones are not supposed to be penetrable by any hand weapon except a pole arm. Longswords for the field are not supposed to flex like it was shown in the video. Besides... aren't you supposed to post it in sumarai v. knights thread?

I fencing weekly with foil (yeah, not a real weapon) for over three years now. I can tell you this -- an Epee fencer does have a huge advantages over us the "beginners". The key factor here is kinetic energy. The heavier the blade, the more kinetic energy it packs, thus easier to control the motion. I am not convince that samurai sword can pack more energy not matter how good it performs against a static target.

Sorry, I missed the sumarai v. knights thread.