Lt Gen Brar: It was an assassination attempt by 'pro-Khalistan elements'

[Tronic]

Tronic, be the devils advocate by all means, but just as you blame the other Indians on WAB for being pro-Op Bluestar,

I have not "blamed" anyone on WAB for being anything, LT. Everyone has their own perspectives, narratives and biases, not excluding myself, and I'm only challenging those narratives. Resorting to labels such as "pro" or "anti" something so deep into the middle of a discussion would be nothing but petty.

the others increasingly see your views as pro-Khalistani.

I'll take it that you're referring to yourself here.

Is that somehow suppose to deter me from criticizing the army and/or the government?

It's that attitude which has constantly suppressed the Sikh voices in Delhi when they clamour for justice. When the blow back is seen in cases like Rajoana, the finger is again pointed towards the Sikhs.

The open media sources that state this are pro-Khalistani/anti-Indian.

Than let's stick with what Shekhar Gupta has reported, and General Brar has admitted. Artillery and Tanks were used.

I was old enough to see the TV footage, but you would not believe me, so check out an "open source" website that has a lot of pictures of the aftermath of the operation - Operation Blue Star 1984 Golden Temple Attack Sikhs

See if you can spot any shell craters on the floor around the holy pond.

I hope you do realize that the first picture is merely a reference picture of the undestroyed compound and not of operation Bluestar.

Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;







That's some small arms fire, LT... In a place hosting 10,000 civilians.

I'm giving you first hand accounts from what I learnt from soldiers and officers who took part in the operation.
Regarding the IA being callous...I'll give you a real account of "how callous" they were. Judge for yourself. The RMO (Regt medical officer) of one of the infantry battalions (I forget his name, but he was from Lima Batch AFMC, was my father's student during his MOBC course), saw a wounded terrorist, and went to attend to his wounds. Suddenly from one of the rooms (along the side walls of the complex), a couple of other terrorists jumped him and his nursing assistant (NA). The NA was shot and the RMOs arms where chopped with a sword. He later died of blood loss. I'm sure you would have not heard these aspects of the battle either.

The RMO's actions are commendable. I'm not the one seeing this as black and white as you are. The soldiers on the frontlines are also human. I'm not in the business of demonizing anyone. If the soldiers mow down unarmed civilians rushing for water, it's only because of their survival instincts kicking in after being thrown into a pressure cooker situation by their incompetent commanders despite them being, "massacred wave after wave", as General Brar put it.

It's the military commanders and the central government on whose head I'm putting the 1000 dead civilians.

Read this article and you will get some idea of the thought process that went in to the operation - Bluestar: 'Right decision, wrong implementation'

He's a Congress loyal man, so he's shifting the whole blame away from the Congress and onto the army, but regardless, the article only reinforces my point. The Operation was a fcuk up by some very incompetent commanders who had all the time in the world to plan it.

That is why I am trying to fill in the gaps for you.

And I'm trying to explain to you that you cannot fill in the gaps, because you do not know any more than the common man on the street. Your only access to information was the same government which was carrying out an information blackout in Punjab. As for trickling down information from army circles, I've had enough family in the army to know how much of that information is reality and how much hearsay.

By the looks of it you need the most healing. You are very hurt and the information of whatever has been told to you about the operation has only festered your emotional wounds. There are others like you too. But I can reach out only to you.

I need the most healing? Mate, try Punjab!

The circumstances surrounding Operation Bluestar can be very well understood. If you genuinely wish to heal over 20 million of your countrymen's emotional wounds, than start writing to your MLAs, MPs and other constituency heads and start demanding justice for the '84 pogroms.

If you want to go by western sources, then also 90% of the civilians were saved by the IA. This figure is much better than the rescue operations carried out by the Spetsnaz in the Moscow theater siege or the Belsan school incident.

The civilians at the Golden Temple didn't need to be "saved", they could've easily walked out of the temple. They were not being held hostages. I think you mean to say that the Indian army managed not to kill 90% of civilians, since "saving" the civilians was never the intent of that operation. (And that 90% figure only looks good when you're talking about a group of 10 or even 100 people, not when you're talking about 10,000 people!)

You can't compare Moscow theatre siege and Beslan school incident with Bluestar. The former were pre-planned and rigged operations by terrorists to deliberately kill civilians who were being held hostage, while Bluestar resulted in a 1000 dead civilians who were free to walk out of the Temple but were disallowed to by the security forces. Apples and Oranges.

No, because they have more faith in the separatists and their issues. As long as people take the side of convicts like Rajhona then they remain on the other side of the fence.

Distrusting the Indian government does not mean trusting the separatists. Punish the '84 pogroms culprits and you'll regain the trust of Sikhs and folks such as Rajoana won't matter. You keep forgetting that it's the Sikhs who have gotten the shorter end of the stick, not the other way around.

It is these very people who go hunting for retired policemen to avenge the arrests and execution of assasins (refer to the retired hangman who executed the assasins of former COAS Gen AK Vaidya).

Now you have turned them into boogeymen. They are normal people who feel they have been wronged and distrust the Indian government with good reason.

The moment Sikhs start to criticize the government or army, they are quickly vilified and clubbed together with extremists.

Well, here are your "extremist radical bloodthirsty" Sikh youth mate:

The events of '84 have been etched into the identity of the next gen Sikh youth mate. The Indian government should start taking steps to address the grievances and make up for the wrongs while they still have time, before Tytler and company pass away natural deaths, and the separatists get a permanent cause to rally around.

Most of what I have given you is 1st hand information from people who took part in that operation.

I have already touched on this, but let me just add, 1st hand information from an army which carried out an information blackout.

[Officer of Engineers]

Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;

I see MG damage. I don't see mortar nor any indirect weapons damage.

Tronic, there is no way to hide craters. The best you can do is refill it with quick drying cement but the area is extremely noticeable and any high school chemist can detect blast residues.

Tronic, I am Canadian and I am ethnic Chinese. I have no dog in this fight. If you are willing to provide photographic evidence to your claims, I will look at it.

But at this point, I have no reason to doubt the InA.

[Tronic]

I see MG damage. I don't see mortar nor any indirect weapons damage.

Tronic, there is no way to hide craters. The best you can do is refill it with quick drying cement but the area is extremely noticeable and any high school chemist can detect blast residues.

Tronic, I am Canadian and I am ethnic Chinese. I have no dog in this fight. If you are willing to provide photographic evidence to your claims, I will look at it.

But at this point, I have no reason to doubt the InA.

Sir, the only pictures are of those released by the army, but regardless, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm sure marble would not be able to withstand the weight of a tank either, but we do not have pictures of the entire compound. Only a portion, which are released by the army. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:

Journo: I’ve had a strong personal professional view that the one big blunder that all of you made in Operation Blue Star was throwing the media out. Although you did not manage to quite throw me out. I stayed back and for a while all of you complained about the fact that I stayed back. If I may say so, it was we who first revealed the fact that you used tanks and artillery. Was the idea that somehow it will remain hidden from the rest of the country that you used tanks and artillery?

General Brar: I don’t know what the idea really was because this was something that my superiors thought of. But I agree with you that the media must remain there. They must see everything. And I think that after that we have learnt a lesson.

‘It was wrong to keep media out of Amritsar during Op Blue Star. Without them, there were rumours and a lot of mutinies’ - Indian Express

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:

That fits what you have shown me. Direct weapons fire. You've stated artillery and I have not seen it.

[Firestorm]

Sir, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:

So how do you suggest that the IA soldiers should have shielded themselves from the MG nests that were mowing them down without APC's and tanks? Captain LT already explained why tanks were brought in, in a previous post.

The APCs (not sure if these were Topaz or BMP-1s) were used as the MG nests were pouring murderous fire, but when the tracks of an APC were hit by a Chineese made RPG round, then tanks were called in.

In all the posts criticizing the IA and comparing the operation with Tiananmen square, people conveniently choose to ignore the kind of adversary that the IA was facing. These were trained militants carrying assault rifles and were organized and led by an combat experienced ex-IA Major General .

[Officer of Engineers]

Were they lawful orders? After all, every officer and soldier in the western armies are trained and taught to disobey certain orders, especially after the Nuremberg trials. Declaring martial law does not in itself predicate a lawful order to shoot unarmed protesters. Otherwise, Al-Bassad regime of Syria and Gaddafi would easily get away with your parameters. Stop trying to find a loophole for the CCP while castigating others for not following the law.

Actually, you are right. Chinese law was broken. 38GA MGen Xu Qinxian was relieved because he refused to deploy.

Gen Cao, 2 decades later, reaffirm the legality to refuse such an order.

You will have to walk me through this. If I read this right, an illegal order to deploy does not mean the order for lethal force is illegal. The Chinese do not follow common law and thus, I am at a loss to understand this all.

[Tronic]

That fits what you have shown me. Direct weapons fire. You've stated artillery and I have not seen it.

Sir, it was Shekhar Gupta of India today who reported the use of artillery, and while the India Today does not host archives on it's site, it does mention in a later article that;

Foot soldiers marching towards the Akal Takht ran into heavy machine-gun barrage from the Harmandir Sahib. Artillery pounded the Akal Takht and the heavily fortified piliboxes on the top of the 18th century towers and the langar building.
How Operation Bluestar was carried out? : Latest Headlines, News - India Today

Anyways doing some digging, here is a reproduction of Gupta's original article, but, by a Sikh site, so take it as you may;

The commanders were now faced with a terribly difficult situation. The dawn was not too far away and as a senior officer recalls, once the place was lighted, each of the nearly 1800 troops inside the Parikarma could have been picked out by snipers. This is when tanks of the 16 Cavalry were asked to come in. The tank-men were initially told to use only the “secondary armament” meaning thereby the machine-gun on the turret. Later however the main gun was used too.

Simultaneously an artillery colonel was asked to take an ancient 3.7 inch howitzer atop a tall building overlooking the Akal Takht. Officers explain the howitzer was chosen for shelling since it can fire straight on-horizontally, promising greater accuracy at close range. Initially the artillery men tried to mount the gun atop the building of a nationalised bank. But in spite of generous help from the scores of civilians it proved impossible to haul up the heavy artillery piece with ropes. Later another building was chosen. To ensure that the aim was accurate, the gunners first fired smoke shells, then the real fireworks began.

Sikh Roots - Sikh Roots - Operation Bluestar: Night Of Blood

And most importantly, the General has never denied the use of artillery.

[Tronic]

So how do you suggest that the IA soldiers should have shielded themselves from the MG nests that were mowing them down without APC's and tanks? Captain LT already explained why tanks were brought in, in a previous post.

And for the nth time, it's not about the APCs or tanks, but the civilians! The timing of the operation on a day when the place was packed with pilgrims! They had 6 months, and they chose the one day which would result in the highest number of people caught in the crossfire. It reeks of incompetency.

[Officer of Engineers]

And most importantly, the General has never denied the use of artillery.

That is not evidence. I don't deny aliens helped Canada during WWII. I just ignore such claims.

However, the point remains, you cannot hide a crater. You can refill it, pave over it, and then pretend it doesn't exist. However, given that the temple is now in Sikh civilian hands and with such eye witness accounts, it is not hard to dig up the supposed crater and submit the dirt for forensic evidence.

[Tronic]

That is not evidence. I don't deny aliens helped Canada during WWII. I just ignore such claims.

However, the point remains, you cannot hide a crater. You can refill it, pave over it, and then pretend it doesn't exist. However, given that the temple is now in Sikh civilian hands and with such eye witness accounts, it is not hard to dig up the supposed crater and submit the dirt for forensic evidence.

We haven't been able to get justice after digging up mass graves in Haryana, so I doubt digging up craters will do much good. Though I'll concede that point. But sir, does that change the discourse of this discussion?

[Officer of Engineers]

But sir, does that change the discourse of this discussion?

I don't know.

I don't have a dog in this fight ... and I don't have a a dog in Tienanmen Square nor Libya nor Syria nor Chechnya ... though I do have a dog in the Kosovo fight. The KLA is a drug smuggling, gun running, child prostitution ring.

What I really want to do here is to present the evidence to your side - to provide a balance view. That the army fucked up ... but thus far, you have not presented anything that the army has not already admitted that they fucked up.

[lemontree]

I'll take it that you're referring to yourself here.
Is that somehow suppose to deter me from criticizing the army and/or the government?

We are a democracy and you are free to speak and be critical of the army or government, but when you defend and justify a terrorist like Rajhona...you put yourself on the other side of the fence.

It's that attitude which has constantly suppressed the Sikh voices in Delhi when they clamour for justice. When the blow back is seen in cases like Rajoana, the finger is again pointed towards the Sikhs.

Then focus on getting the culprits of 1984 riots, don't defend convicted terrorists. The moment you defend convicted terrorists you become no different than the Hurriayat that defends Afzal guru.

Than let's stick with what Shekhar Gupta has reported, and General Brar has admitted. Artillery and Tanks were used.

3.7 inch howitzers is an arty weapon and was used to hit the MG nests on the water towers.

I hope you do realize that the first picture is merely a reference picture of the undestroyed compound and not of operation Bluestar.
Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;
That's some small arms fire, LT... In a place hosting 10,000 civilians.

Those are smalls arms and direct fire weapon marks. OOE has already explained to you.
I have given you the best proof that you can get, and you still dont believe...!!!!

It's the military commanders and the central government on whose head I'm putting the 1000 dead civilians.

....and you put no blame on Bhindranwale and his gang. They were given ample opportunity to let the pilgrims go, but they kept them as human shields.

He's a Congress loyal man, so he's shifting the whole blame away from the Congress and onto the army, but regardless, the article only reinforces my point. The Operation was a fcuk up by some very incompetent commanders who had all the time in the world to plan it.

Whatever be his loyalties, the article shows that there was no anti-Sikh motive....the plannig and conduct of the operation was a different matter.

I need the most healing? Mate, try Punjab!....

Punjab is run by SAD....(the pun is intended).

The circumstances surrounding Operation Bluestar can be very well understood. If you genuinely wish to heal over 20 million of your countrymen's emotional wounds, than start writing to your MLAs, MPs and other constituency heads and start demanding justice for the '84 pogroms.

I would also like justice for the many non-sikh civilians killed by the separatists...who does one write to?

The civilians at the Golden Temple didn't need to be "saved", they could've easily walked out of the temple. They were not being held hostages. I think you mean to say that the Indian army managed not to kill 90% of civilians, since "saving" the civilians was never the intent of that operation. (And that 90% figure only looks good when you're talking about a group of 10 or even 100 people, not when you're talking about 10,000 people!)

The civilians were human shields...and still 90% escaped death and injury,...

You can't compare Moscow theatre siege and Beslan school incident with Bluestar. The former were pre-planned and rigged operations by terrorists to deliberately kill civilians who were being held hostage, while Bluestar resulted in a 1000 dead civilians who were free to walk out of the Temple but were disallowed to by the security forces. Apples and Oranges.

So what do you thing Shahbeg was doing in the temple complex?...he designed the automatic weapon emplacements and his course of defensive battle. Again you seem to see no fault with the terrorists....

Distrusting the Indian government does not mean trusting the separatists. Punish the '84 pogroms culprits and you'll regain the trust of Sikhs and folks such as Rajoana won't matter. You keep forgetting that it's the Sikhs who have gotten the shorter end of the stick, not the other way around.

I agree with you,...but my friend the SGPC needs to stop glorifying the terrorists. As long as their portraits hang in the Golden Temple, the nation will have very little inclination to punish the riot accused.

Now you have turned them into boogeymen. They are normal people who feel they have been wronged and distrust the Indian government with good reason.

So now you are calling these men who hunt to kill "normal people"!!!!

The moment Sikhs start to criticize the government or army, they are quickly vilified and clubbed together with extremists.

We the criticizism crosses the line and ends in an attack or threat - it becomes terrorism.

The events of '84 have been etched into the identity of the next gen Sikh youth mate. The Indian government should start taking steps to address the grievances and make up for the wrongs while they still have time, before Tytler and company pass away natural deaths, and the separatists get a permanent cause to rally around.

Is'nt a trail going on on Sajjan Kumar, the former Cong politician and 1984 riot accused?....You are aware of the system.
The nation has no sympathy for Tytler or Sajjan Kumar...

[lemontree]

.... The timing of the operation on a day when the place was packed with pilgrims! They had 6 months, and they chose the one day which would result in the highest number of people caught in the crossfire.....

The operation was hurriedly planned and executed due to the intelligence intercept received from the KGB. Bhindranwale was to declare independence and the Pak Army would cross the border to assist them.

It reeks of incompetency

Maybe, but it was far better than to allow a lunatic to wage war on the nation.

[Tronic]

We are a democracy and you are free to speak and be critical of the army or government, but when you defend and justify a terrorist like Rajhona...you put yourself on the other side of the fence.


Then focus on getting the culprits of 1984 riots, don't defend convicted terrorists. The moment you defend convicted terrorists you become no different than the Hurriayat that defends Afzal guru.

From where has Rajoana come into this discussion?

Regardless, there was no Rajoana in 1995. What stopped the culprits who carried out that pogrom from being trialed a decade before that? Most Sikhs had not even heard the name Rajoana till this year. Before him, countless Sikh assassins and terrorists have been trialed and hanged, without anyone making any noise. So what makes Rajoana so different? You tell me.

3.7 inch howitzers is an arty weapon and was used to hit the MG nests on the water towers.

Water towers or the Akal Takth? Akal Takth too had MG nests btw.

That is smalls arms and direct fire weapons. OOE has already explained to you.
I have given you the best proof that you can get, and you still dont believe...!!!!

OoE can come in again but from what I understood he was contesting the point about artillery fire. Direct Weapons fire is still tank rounds.

....and you put no blame on Bhindranwale and his gangs. They were given ample opportunity to let the pilgrims go, but they kept them as human shields.

Bhinderenwala was a very big ****, but what ample time are you talking about LT? The operation started without any prior warning and with the sealing of the temple; the stated objective of the army was to get in before sunrise. Therefore there's nothing that indicates that the army was prepared to evacuate 10,000 pilgrims within that time frame. I also don't see 200 militants holding 10,000 people hostage against their will.

Whatever be his loyalties, the article shows that there was no anti-Sikh motive....the plannig and conduct of the operation was a different matter.

Just go back through my posts. I have been lamenting the incompetency of the military commanders, not some anti-Sikh ploy.

Punjab is run by SAD....(the pun is intended).

The pogroms took place in Delhi, not Punjab.

I would also like justice for the many no-sikh civilians killed by the separatists...who does one write to?

15,000 - 25,000 dead, mostly Sikhs, not justice enough for you?

The civilians were human shields...and still 90% escaped death and injury,...

You don't use tanks to knock down human shields. 90% of 10,000 is nothing to be proud of.

So what do you thing Shahbeg was doing in the temple complex?...he designed the automatic weapon emplacements and his course of defensive battle.

Shahbeg designed a kill zone for the army, not the civilians. Beslan was a direct attack on the civilians, not government forces.

Again you seem to see no fault with the terrorists....

The terrorists are at fault by their presence, but the it's the army which chose the time and the day.

I agree with you,...but my friend the SGPC needs to stop glorifying the terrorists. As long as their portraits hang in the Golden Temple, the nation will have very little inclination to punish the riot accused.

They hadn't glorified the terrorists for the last 2 decades, so what was inclining the nation to turn their backs back than?

So no you are calling these men "normal people"!!!!

Don't step out of context. I'm talking about your normal everyday youth, not gun totting terrorists. You are clubbing everyone together. That's a mistake.

We the criticizism crosses the line and ends in an attack or threat - it becomes terrorism.

So you're saying that I'm culpable for terrorism by criticizing the Indian government?

Is'nt a trail going on on Sajjan Kumar, the former Cong politician and 1984 riot accused?....You are aware of the system.
The nation has no sympathy for Tytler or Sajjan Kumar...

LT, the real news would be if they actually are convicted, otherwise, there have been several mock trials over the past two and a half decades, which usually either end up with "lost" evidence from CBI offices, witnesses changing their testimony, and most amusing as it happened in Tytler's trial, the prosecution labeling a key witness as "missing" and "unavailable" only to have that person go on tv smashing the prosecution for failing to contact him. I'm aware of the system. It's pathetic to say the least.

[Tronic]

I don't know.

I don't have a dog in this fight ... and I don't have a a dog in Tienanmen Square nor Libya nor Syria nor Chechnya ... though I do have a dog in the Kosovo fight. The KLA is a drug smuggling, gun running, child prostitution ring.

The Khalistanis mainly went under the umbrella of the ISI, but now are starting to play a part in the drug trade as well, something the Indian government does not want to admit to and continues to use Sikh diaspora as the scapegoats.

What I really want to do here is to present the evidence to your side - to provide a balance view. That the army fucked up ... but thus far, you have not presented anything that the army has not already admitted that they fucked up.

There's nothing more to present OoE. It's good enough to admit that Op Bluestar was a major fcuk up which sparked the Khalistan insurgency, and that the anti-Sikh pogroms added fuel to the fire.

My bone of contention with LT has been the total deflection of responsibility away from the government and onto the militants.