Islam and Immigration in Europe, tolerance blowback

[cyppok]

Swedish Democrat: ban Islam | IceNews - Daily News

Swedish Democrat: ban Islam

Posted on03 September 2012.

A Swedish politician has said that Islam and its followers should be banned in the Scandinavian country.

The comments came at the weekend via Pär Norling, the figure head of the Bollnäs Sweden Democrats (SD) group. He said during an interview with Sveriges Television (SVT) on Saturday, “Ban Islam in Sweden and deport those who persist in believing in the religion.”

Norling’s controversial statement comes amid rising tension between Muslims in Sweden following a controversial rape case in Bollnäs on 16 July, which prompted a subsequent demonstration by a national neo-Nazi group the Swedish Resistance Movement (Svenska Motståndsrörelsen) later in the summer.

Mr Norling said during the interview that he did not support the neo-Nazi movement in Sweden but said that he sided with them in the notion that Muslims do not belong in Swedish Society.

He told Sveriges TV, “That can exist elsewhere but in Sweden it doesn’t fit in.” The interviewer went on to ask how authorities would handle those still wanting to practice Islam under such a law, to which he replied, “Then the solution is deportation.”

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Inland 15.09.10 at. 06:00
Brother People divided on immigrants

Immigration and Islam cares Swedes much smaller than the Danes, though there are far more immigrants in Sweden.

Swedes are far more positive about immigration than the Danes, and they do not consider Islam to be a threat to the cohesion of society to the same extent as the Danes do.

65 per cent. of Swedes say they perceive the past decades of immigration as positive, while it is 50 per cent. in Denmark. 20 per cent. see immigration as something negative, while twice as many Danes have the view.

In Sweden says 47 per cent., That they do not perceive Islam as a problem for social cohesion, while only 19 per cent. of Danes share the view.

Danish Drude Dahlerup, a professor at Stockholm University, believes that "the examination through holes myth that the ordinary Swede has a different view of immigrants than the political elite '.

65% of Swedes say they think immigration is positive, compared to 50% of Danes. 20% think it's negative, compared to 42% of Danes.

47% of Swedes say they don't see Islam as a problem for social cohesion,compared to just 18% of Danes who think the same.

Penalties for Forced Marriage: Berlin Passes New Integration Measures - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Tougher immigration laws for France again | Television New Zealand | News, Sport, Weather, TV ONE, TV2 | TVNZ | WORLD News

It is the sixth time since 2002 that France has looked to tighten its immigration laws and comes after President Nicolas Sarkozy launched a debate on national identity that critics say pandered to far-right extremists.

Immigration Minister Eric Besson, who has recently backed calls for a French ban on the full-face Muslim veil, or burqa, presented the bill to the cabinet.

Amongst the measures was a move to increase the time illegal immigrants can be held in detention to 45 days from 32, after which the authorities have to make a decision on whether to expel them or further investigate their request for asylum.

Besson, who has been set a goal by Sarkozy to expel 30,000 illegal immigrants from French soil this year, defended the push to extend the detention period, which will give authorities more time to check asylum demands.

"(The period) is 60 days in Portugal, six months in the Netherlands, Austria or Hungary, eight months in Belgium, 18 months in Germany, 24 months in Switzerland, and unlimited in Britain," he wrote in his presentation of the bill.

Under the terms of the proposed law, anyone caught employing illegal immigrants will face up to five years in prison and a maximum fine of 15,000 euros ($28,341).

The bill also calls for immigrants hoping to naturalise to adhere "to the essential principles and values of the republic" and requires people to sign a "charter of the rights and duties of the French citizen".

France is home to Europe's largest Muslim population and the government has been particularly concerned over whether Islam is compatible with the country's secularist model.

Swiss to limit immigration from eastern Europe | Reuters

Swiss to limit immigration from eastern Europe
REUTERS — 04/18/12

ZURICH (Reuters) - Switzerland Said on Wednesday it was reimposing quotas on workers from central and eastern Europe as it faces criticism over soaring immigration to an economy that is holding up better than most others on the continent.

The Swiss cabinet said it had decided to invoke a "safeguard clause" in its agreement with the European Union on the free movement of persons, reimposing quotas that were abolished a year ago for citizens from central and eastern Europe.

"In invoking the safeguard clause, the Federal Council is seeking to apply one of the means at its disposal to control the immigration flow into Switzerland," it said in a statement.

The government is imposing a quota of 2,000 permits for the year from May 1 for citizens from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic and Hungary compared to the 6,000 permits granted in the last year.

The government said the 1.1 million EU citizens in the country of 7.9 million benefited the economy, but added the rate of immigration was raising concerns over issues of integration and compliance with minimum wage and working conditions.

Europeans overwhelmingly against immigration: Poll | EurActiv

While anti-immigration sentiment, according to the poll, is broadly shared across Europe, there are significant national differences. The number of foreigners in some countries, particularly Belgium, France and Germany, has grown relatively slowly over the past decade or has even declined.

Other countries, often traditionally lands of emigration, have seen spectacular increases in foreign residents. According to Eurostat, between 1999 and 2010 their numbers increased from 1.2 million to 4.2 million in Italy, from less than 120,000 to 420,000 in Ireland, and from 650,000 to 5.7 million in Spain.

I kinda fell flat a bit on my face trying to find new articles but overall the idea that there is the rise of anti-immigration right wings in Europe is pretty spot on.

What I found a bit funny was a while ago I was reading about Islam in Russia and what most of those people whom wrote those stories do not mention is that most of the people in Russia whom are Muslim lived there in some cases prior to Russia's existence or migrated there hundreds of years ago. Especially Tatars and others. Co-existance seems to have been ok granted there are thorny issues with North Caucasus etc...

any good stories please post been following the trend of right parties going higher in popularity for a while now. Wondering where it all leads since in some ways the changes and limits are still cosmetic since EU policy begins to dominate to a degree.

[Doktor]

Cyppok,

Something is wrong with your title. You want to talk about the immigration or about the Muslims in Europe and the coexistence with others in Europe?

[cyppok]

Cyppok,

Something is wrong with your title. You want to talk about the immigration or about the Muslims in Europe and the coexistence with others in Europe?

technically the title is correct. Yes, I sort of wanted to talk about it but was thinking about the interplay between all 3 things, internal dynamics, external immigration, and extra religious impact upon each.

What is interesting is that Finland and Denmark had a completely different dynamic vis a vis Norway and Sweden. Both of the former had and still have harder barriers for entry rather than two of the latter. The other interesting aspect is that Islam in the later two is more dominant in expression and is not contested as much as in Denmark at least which tried to create a free speach dominates all outcome.

Granted there are other immigration dynamics going on there as well, Balkans, Eastern Europe etc... and so the immigrant debate is bifurcating, but the religious mix brings in an extra aspect for societies to clash even subconsciously over how things are done in this place or that.

There is also some aspect of tolerance blowback since most of the countries that were wide open are the ones that turned to right-wing parties the fastest. Ergo Belgium, Netherlands, and to a degree Sweden and Switzerland are moving in that direction as well. It was unthinkable even ten years ago that these issues would dominate since economics were the main prerogatives back then and restructuring to grow was more important.

[kato]

It was unthinkable even ten years ago that these issues would dominate

I would disagree with that notion at least with regard to Switzerland and the Netherlands. In the Netherlands Wilder's anti-islam mongers pulled the same results in 2002/2003 as today, in Switzerland the nationalist-conservative SVP first became the largest party in parliament in 1999.
Don't forget that this also coincided with their neighbor Austria's right-wing extremist FPÖ pulling 27% of the vote and entering the government in 1999 (and Austria getting sanctioned for it by the EU). In fact, i'd rather think that as far as popular support goes parties that go in that particular anti-islam, anti-immigration direction had their peak ten years ago throughout Europe.

The problem is that elites within mainstream parties are increasingly supporting similar positions in order to garner votes from the far-right end of the population.

[cyppok]

I would disagree with that notion at least with regard to Switzerland and the Netherlands. In the Netherlands Wilder's anti-islam mongers pulled the same results in 2002/2003 as today, in Switzerland the nationalist-conservative SVP first became the largest party in parliament in 1999.
Don't forget that this also coincided with their neighbor Austria's right-wing extremist FPÖ pulling 27% of the vote and entering the government in 1999 (and Austria getting sanctioned for it by the EU). In fact, i'd rather think that as far as popular support goes parties that go in that particular anti-islam, anti-immigration direction had their peak ten years ago throughout Europe.

The problem is that elites within mainstream parties are increasingly supporting similar positions in order to garner votes from the far-right end of the population.

I actually think both have gone from small parties to pluralistic representation above 20% or so. Wilder's has been gaining momentum in every election. Swiss also to a large degree.
Scandinavia is just beginning to go that route with switching of the political guard although the agenda hasn't been moving as much.

I disagree my feeling is there has been political success but not much of it has translated into policy or actual government mandates. The changes were cosmetic and the parties can't push through the things they want. My guess is the real problems begin to arise post facto.
After those changes are incorporated and there needs to be concrete incorporation of one culture into another or somehow benevolent co-existance without pushing of ideologies onto one another.

My feeling is a lot of this will gain traction once the conservatives become more independently minded and the Eu is thrown out or down into being just the trade union it was instead of another layer of supra-national bureaucracy.

[Doktor]

In times of crisis there will always be people who have issues with "strangers getting their jobs". However, IMHO, they wont find too much fertile ground among educated working population, which will always be a majority.

It might sound like a good music to the unemployed ears, but the Gov can't expel all the foreigners from any country simply because most of the jobs the foreigners took are the jobs that locals didn't wanted or were unqualified to take. The same locals will leave 50% of those jobs empty. Or 50% of the job done ;)

[cyppok]

Oh no no no Doktor... there are some very real economics behind expanding workforce to have more "competitive wages", there is a trade off. Native populations do get less when there is competition due to immigration, that is not the only point.
There is also cohesion and integration costs that fluctuate depending on various aspects.

But I'll give you two examples of South Korea and Japan which do not permit large scale immigration, and I'll even say Russia doesn't (except from former CIS).

The argument you make is one that many make and it isn't true. When you got to other countries many people do those jobs from those same countries and are happy doing them. Even in Japan. Foreigners do not necessarily take jobs others do not want they could take even good jobs because the legal dynamics favor them since they can easially be discarded. 50% jobs empty = higher wages usually or it gets automatisized etc.. the argument from Economists that people would do something else is usually a false one. Societies are always bifurcated into multiple layers and whenever you increase competition for any layer from outside there is a price either for the firm (lower wages) or for the individual (higher wages).

The point of this thread was more to do with merging of societies once you have immigrants with a dominant ideology like Islam. Especially since many of them are the same ethnicity and live in areas of compact density where they can have local majorities. To a degree you have their way and societal way, sooner or later one has to give.

[Doktor]

Oh no no no Doktor... there are some very real economics behind expanding workforce to have more "competitive wages", there is a trade off. Native populations do get less when there is competition due to immigration, that is not the only point.
There is also cohesion and integration costs that fluctuate depending on various aspects.

But I'll give you two examples of South Korea and Japan which do not permit large scale immigration, and I'll even say Russia doesn't (except from former CIS).

You are deliberately forgetting when the immigration in Western Europe started?

The argument you make is one that many make and it isn't true. When you got to other countries many people do those jobs from those same countries and are happy doing them. Even in Japan. Foreigners do not necessarily take jobs others do not want they could take even good jobs because the legal dynamics favor them since they can easially be discarded. 50% jobs empty = higher wages usually or it gets automatisized etc.. the argument from Economists that people would do something else is usually a false one. Societies are always bifurcated into multiple layers and whenever you increase competition for any layer from outside there is a price either for the firm (lower wages) or for the individual (higher wages).

You are now talking about jobs with higher qualifications. I thought the unions had it sorted to an extend in most of the countries

The point of this thread was more to do with merging of societies once you have immigrants with a dominant ideology like Islam. Especially since many of them are the same ethnicity and live in areas of compact density where they can have local majorities. To a degree you have their way and societal way, sooner or later one has to give.

What Islam has to do with Switzerland's decision not to let Eastern Europeans?

[kato]

You are deliberately forgetting when the immigration in Western Europe started?

That would be roundabout 800,000 years ago, give or take a couple thousand?

[Doktor]

Yep

That's why all the wars around here.

[cyppok]

No Doktor I am talking about both higher and lower wage jobs all are realistically at risk. The reality is it is easier to hire an engeneer from India pay for their U.S. work and lodging than to hire and American one due to student loan overhead requiring higher pay. Say 30k vs 50k a year. The other reality is the compliance costs and liability risk, ergo a foreign worker has lower rights and any contention vis a vis you as the employer is at a much lower ability to stand their ground, nor is it even desirable. In a highly litigious society (USA) this also gets factored in.

So you have both high and low paying jobs being driven by both monetary and non monetary means to embrace the enlargement of labor pool via immigration both legal and illegal. In Europe it is relatively similar particularly in light of higher bureaucratic barriers, thus employing foreigners "temporary" on a cyclical hamster wheel is preferable than dealing with locals (even if wages were a bit lower/parity for the locals mind you).

Western Europe is playing social do gooder while to a degree playing off benefits for producers or capital owners vis a vis consumers. The problem is that eventually the consumers need wages to participate in an ever smaller and smaller market wage wise while the producers will reach a constant on what they could extract to boost profit margins via wage shifting (foreign vs local) in the end there will be a small spiral and social unrest as we see in France, Spain, etc... for letting youth into the market at living wages but the reality is expectations for capital are so far out in disproportion that it will take time and a lot of capital destruction for margins to become favorable locally to produce and/or invest. Also a lot of bureaucratic crap has to be cleared out.

[kato]

The reality is it is easier to hire an engeneer from India pay for their U.S. work and lodging than to hire and American one due to student loan overhead requiring higher pay. Say 30k vs 50k a year.

That's a highly US-specific problem though. To a far lesser extent also increasingly the UK and other anglo countries, but no one in mainland Europe would see such as a driving factor for pay.

Fact in Europe is that in most countries expat experts do not receive any less money than local nationals. In fact, pay may even not be competitive (point in fact: one of my expat colleagues has just been headhunted for a better-paid job - in Abu Dhabi).

In the low-income section we do not really face a problem of immigrants being paid less. Mostly because we have a massive effort underway for the past decade to shutter the borders against these immigrants. What we do have in that section is work immigrants from poorer EU member nations - meaning Bulgaria and Romania, to a lesser extent Poland. What we also do have, in particular in countries with minimum wages, is a large grey-black market of both immigrants and locals equally working outside the system.

The other reality is the compliance costs and liability risk, ergo a foreign worker has lower rights and any contention vis a vis you as the employer is at a much lower ability to stand their ground, nor is it even desirable.

We do see this in capitalist structures in Europe. In Germany, this problem for expats is in particular effective in the freelancer scene, i.e. structural exploitation. Freelance teaching, tour guides and similar. However, these are jobs no local would even consider worth risking capital on.

thus employing foreigners "temporary" on a cyclical hamster wheel is preferable than dealing with locals

Actually, that just results in higher administrative costs and constantly renewed "bureaucracy barrier" encounters. Wouldn't know any local company that does that. Especially on a grander scale.

the reality is expectations for capital are so far out in disproportion that it will take time and a lot of capital destruction for margins to become favorable locally to produce and/or invest

If you look at the Spanish real estate asset investment market in particular you'll see a number of large-scale investment projects that are not just doomed to fail, but already fully intentionally preprogrammed to do that. Structural problem with investment enticement in the country. Too easy to exploit.

As for local production? As long as we refer to the common market as a whole, we do produce locally. It's just concentrated to the benefit of certain member states.

[cyppok]

Europeans Increasingly Converting to Islam :: Gatestone Institute
Somewhat interesting article.

Europeans Increasingly Converting to Islam

by Soeren Kern
January 27, 2012 at 5:00 am

Irish actor Liam Neeson says he is thinking about becoming a Muslim after undergoing a spiritual awakening in Turkey.

Neeson, who was born into a Roman Catholic family in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, told the London-based newspaper The Sun that he was impressed by the religious atmosphere in Istanbul while filming a movie in the city.

He said: "The [Islamic] call to prayer happens five times a day, and for the first week, it drives you crazy, and then it just gets into your spirit, and it's the most beautiful, beautiful thing. There are 4,000 mosques in the city. Some are just stunning, and it really makes me think about becoming a Muslim."

Neeson is just one of hundreds of thousands of Europeans who are trading their Christian heritage for the supposed exoticism of Islam. The surge in conversions is contributing to the mainstreaming of Islam in Europe and contributing to the Islamization of the continent.

In Britain, the number of Muslim converts recently passed the 100,000 mark, according to a survey conducted by an inter-faith group called Faith Matters. The survey revealed that nearly two thirds of the converts were women, more than 70% were white and the average age at conversion was just 27.

The survey, conducted by Kevin Brice from Swansea University in Wales, asked converts for their views on the negative aspects of British culture. They identified alcohol and drunkenness, a "lack of morality and sexual permissiveness" and "unrestrained consumerism."

More than one in four acknowledged there was a "natural conflict" between being a devout Muslim and living in Britain. Nine out of ten women converts said their change of religion had led to them dressing more conservatively. More than half started wearing a head scarf and 5% had worn the burka.

Separately, government authorities revealed that an increasing number of inmates at British prisons are converting to Islam. For example, one-third of the inmates at one of Britain's most notorious youth jails are Muslims and the religion is attracting a large number of converts.

There are 229 Muslims out of a total of 686 youngsters detained at Feltham Young Offenders' Institution in West London, according to Ministry of Justice figures. There are now so many worshippers at Friday prayers that they have to be split between Feltham's mosque and its gym.

Prison insiders say most non-Muslims are locked up during Friday prayers because so many guards are needed to monitor the lunchtime service. As a consequence, many disillusioned youngsters are becoming attracted to Islam by the prospect of getting better food and superior treatment at the prison.

One of the more prominent Britons to convert to Islam is Lauren Booth, sister-in-law of former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Booth, who converted after feeling a "shot of spiritual morphine" on a trip to Iran, now wears a hijab head covering whenever she leaves her home and prays five times a day.

In France, an estimated 70,000 French citizens have converted to Islam in recent years, according to a report by France 3 public television. As in Britain, the majority of converts to Islam in France are young women who say they are disenchanted with materialism.

Conversions to Islam are also rife in Austria, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Holland, Hungary, Ireland, Luxembourg, Norway (and here and here), Poland, Portugal and Spain.

I posted about half of it. Sort of interesting perspective.

[lemontree]

Europeans Increasingly Converting to Islam

Convertions to islam are due to the fact that non-muslim religions are not fanatical and allow individuals to choose their path, whereas islam does not permit its members to convert to other faiths. The radicals punish the converts with death.

The other reason for such conversions is that most of the european christians do not attend mass, but "feel good" on hearing the call for namaz - what logic is that! Most of the cathedrals in europe have converted to museums - why?

There is nothing different in the teachings of islam than what other faiths teach.

[Bigfella]

I would disagree with that notion at least with regard to Switzerland and the Netherlands. In the Netherlands Wilder's anti-islam mongers pulled the same results in 2002/2003 as today, in Switzerland the nationalist-conservative SVP first became the largest party in parliament in 1999.
Don't forget that this also coincided with their neighbor Austria's right-wing extremist FPÖ pulling 27% of the vote and entering the government in 1999 (and Austria getting sanctioned for it by the EU). In fact, i'd rather think that as far as popular support goes parties that go in that particular anti-islam, anti-immigration direction had their peak ten years ago throughout Europe.

The problem is that elites within mainstream parties are increasingly supporting similar positions in order to garner votes from the far-right end of the population.

Looks like somebody is paying attention. Nice one kato. Geert Wilders just lost a third of his voters (down to 10% of the total) and close to half his seats in parliament (24 down to 15). If there was ever a time for a populist anti-immigrant party to make hay I would have thought the current crisis in Europe would have been it. Interesting.


BBC News - Dutch election: Pro-Europe VVD and Labour parties win