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  • 3-star ripped for presentation referencing God

    3-star ripped for presentation referencing God

    By Markeshia Ricks - Staff writer
    Posted : Friday Feb 17, 2012 17:23:05 EST

    Air Force Lt. Gen. Ronnie Hawkins, the new head of the Defense Information Systems Agency, is under fire for a commander’s call Wednesday that included references to God. But Hawkins, who just took over the directorship of DISA in January, said his presentation has been taken out of context.

    As part of an all-hands meeting with DISA employees, Hawkins apparently showed a power point presentation that contained two slides titled “Ronnie’s Rules” that outline 18 priorites, the first and last of which are “Always put God first, and stay within His will” and “Always remember God is good — all the time!”

    Hawkins said in a response to a query from Air Force Times that he stated at the all-hands meeting that “Ronnie’s Rules” were his personal road map for living and he has used it since he was a captain. He said he tries to live by these rules every day.

    “Those two slides, in particular ...were in no way a directive or expectation I have for our dedicated men and women,” said Hawkins, who previously served as deputy director of command control, communications and computer systems, Joint Staff at the Pentagon. “The rules are my own personal guide posts, or moral compass.”

    All DISA employees apparently didn’t see the presentation the same way.

    A DISA employee who witnessed the presentation spoke with Air Force Times under condition of anonymity. He said he was shocked that a senior leader would include such direct references to God in a commander’s call that in his opinion was held to say “I’m your new commander and this is what I expect of you.”

    The employee said that he provided the presentation to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, a nonprofit advocacy group, “in hopes of saving lives.”

    MRFF’s founder and president, Mikey Weinstein, is calling for Hawkins to be court-martialed for violating his oath to the Constitution. He said he is representing 21 employees at DISA.

    The employee said what might seem like an ordinary presentation to Air Force employees can be easily obtained and used as propaganda in other countries — something he said a commander should know. People in Arab nations for example, might see Hawkins’ comments as a show of support toward one religion by the U.S. government, he said.

    “If you’re a commander, you will be seen as speaking for the U.S. government whether you like it or not,” he said. “What you do goes out into world.”
    3-star ripped for presentation referencing God - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times


    To me this seems to be carrying things too far - critisizing this Officer, I admire the General being open about his faith and mentioning it to his subordinates, and usually feel better about soldiers who have faith than those who don't - but this is just my opinion

    I am curious to hear the opinions for our esteemed miliary professionals on this matter.
    sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

  • #2
    Doesn't belong in a command brief....period.

    If he was addressing the chaplains of th ecommand, different story.

    And this is not really about uniformed military personnel. DISA is made up of a mostly civilian workforce.

    All hands meetings are seen as a way for commanders and directors to put "the word" out to everyone.

    Didn't belong.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
      Doesn't belong in a command brief....period.
      Agreed. That was extremely foolhardy on his part.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
        Doesn't belong in a command brief....period.
        Can't wait to see the revised officially PC history of WWII and Patton's call for a clear skies prayer...

        How long till official policies requires everyman in a foxhole to profess atheism or risk an article 15.

        A generic reference to to God should not be considered offensive and should be welcomed senor commanders are never really held to account by our political system. They can make a mistake that costs thousands of lives and the worst that can happen will be a forced retirement. A commander who knows that he will be held to account by God if no one else is a good thing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Every Commander should hire a script reader ;)

          Comment


          • #6
            z,

            A generic reference to to God should not be considered offensive and should be welcomed senor commanders are never really held to account by our political system. They can make a mistake that costs thousands of lives and the worst that can happen will be a forced retirement. A commander who knows that he will be held to account by God if no one else is a good thing
            i have no issue with a commander's belief, but a commander's call where senior leader expectations are set (among other things) was simply an inappropriate place to put a reference to religion.

            imagine the outcry if one replaced "god" with "allah", or "god" with "ahura mazda".
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              z,



              i have no issue with a commander's belief, but a commander's call where senior leader expectations are set (among other things) was simply an inappropriate place to put a reference to religion.

              imagine the outcry if one replaced "god" with "allah", or "god" with "ahura mazda".
              I think Z is right, God is used as a generic term - supreme being. Anyone can accept it according to their preferences, but the atheists ;)
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

              Comment


              • #8
                this gets it done just as well.

                Lorenz on Leadership
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  I think Z is right, God is used as a generic term - supreme being. Anyone can accept it according to their preferences, but the atheists ;)
                  No it does not.

                  This is a persistent issue in the Air Force. It refers to a Christian God. It marginlizes workers who are Jewish, Buddhist, Islamic and believe it or not, Catholic. This has been seen at the Air Force Academy and has been a continuing issue for sometime. Air Force leadership has been called on it numerous times and a group of Jewish officers and cadets have succesfully sued the Air Force over this. It was found that those of Fundamentalist Christian beliefs were fast tracked for assignemnents and promotions over those of other faiths by senior leadership who also ascribed to a Fundamentalist view.

                  And Z, that is a BS strawman argument. Patton asked for a prayer from a chaplain. The chaplain delivered a nondenominational prayer for a specific group and circumstance. It was not part of a command brief to subordinates.

                  And it is fallacious to compare the makeup of the 3rd Army in 1944 to the civilian workforce, both government and contract civilian.

                  The general is free to practice his beliefs so long as he does not impinge on how others believe. He has a special responsibility as a commander/director. It is not a positive impact on good order and discipline. Those of you who have been commanders I believe will concur with me.

                  And contrary to the old saw, even in Patton's time, there were atheists in the foxholes....but that didn't make them any less a soldier and a citizen.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A.R. Reply

                    Concur thoroughly.

                    OTOH, he was just giving reference to the ultimate sky pilot. Nothing surprising there from the boys in blue...

                    I will too-

                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                      And Z, that is a BS strawman argument. Patton asked for a prayer from a chaplain. The chaplain delivered a nondenominational prayer for a specific group and circumstance. It was not part of a command brief to subordinates.
                      A generoc "God" is about as non-denominational as it gets, in government its called ceremonial dieism. He didn't say Christ, Allah, Budda or any there formal name.

                      And it is fallacious to compare the makeup of the 3rd Army in 1944 to the civilian workforce, both government and contract civilian.
                      It is not fallacious, it shows how a small vocal minority is seeking to impose their beliefs on everyone else through BS claims of persecution. If you'll note the person who spoke to air force times said they reported it to save lives... Really how is a generic reference to God going to endanger lives? As for the Third Army as it deals with prayer have you read general training letter #5 originally intended for Chaplains but on the orders of Patton sen down to the chain to every commander at the regimental level and above?

                      Training Letter No. 5 while the "copy" was "hot," touching on some or all of the General's reverie on Prayer, and after staff processing, presented it to General Patton on the next day. The General read it and without change directed that it be circulated not only to the 486 chaplains, but to every organization commander down to and including the regimental level. Three thousand two hundred copies were distributed to every unit in the Third Army over my signature as Third Army Chaplain. Strictly speaking, it was the Army Commander's letter, not mine. Due to the fact that the order came directly from General Patton, distribution was completed on December 11 and 12 in advance of its date line, December 14, 1944. Titled "Training Letter No. 5," with the salutary "Chaplains of the Third Army," the letter continued: "At this stage of the operations I would call upon the chaplains and the men of the Third United States Army to focus their attention on the importance of prayer.

                      The general is free to practice his beliefs so long as he does not impinge on how others believe. He has a special responsibility as a commander/director. It is not a positive impact on good order and discipline. Those of you who have been commanders I believe will concur with me.
                      Generic references to God do not impose on anyone.

                      And contrary to the old saw, even in Patton's time, there were atheists in the foxholes....but that didn't make them any less a soldier and a citizen.
                      Very very few, there may have been atheists going into the foxhole, but once the red wine is served prayer is common by almost every account. God is usually the last casualty of any war as men blame Him for what they did and turn their backs on Him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Fine, Z.

                        Think what you want.

                        He is a commander and 3 star. There is an institutional problem within the Air Force regarding this veryy issue. This just brought it to the light one more time.

                        And the religious and social composition of the US Army as well as our country in 1944 is nothing like it is today.

                        If he doesn't get it as a three star he is unfit to wear the uniform.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I get the point, he has to follow orders, those orders preclude what he did. The military thrives on discipline, the superiors have set policy, the rest must adhere and implement that policy. He might have gotten away with mentioning God verbally, talking purely in reference to himself - the written reference, combined with directives to his subordinates took it past that.

                          That said, I am in areement with Z about the lack of wrongness in mentioning God - we should be free to believe in God, and say so (but I am a private citizen - not a commanding General). I find it troubling that a few - people who don't believe at all, are able to prevent the rest of the society from expressing their faith openly. I accept every different belief, including aethesism, and understand that Faith doesn't always involve my belief in God, some faiths don't identify with God as we know it - the Buddhists are a good example - at least the Varhiana (Dahli Lama's group), Mahiana, and Hiniana groups, the Amitaba Buddhists do believe in a God - Amitaba. The Muslim's don't feel that we are worshipping the same God either it seems, though it is the God of Abraham. Some Fundementalists have made God exclusive to them, and tell me that unless I agree with thier interpretation - I don't believe either. It is a difficult situation - but perhaps rather than argue or even fight over it - it is bbetter to make Faith a private thing, shared on request and not shared on request as well.
                          Last edited by USSWisconsin; 25 Feb 12,, 03:49.
                          sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                          If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Gentlemen, this is what he said,

                            As part of an all-hands meeting with DISA employees, Hawkins apparently showed a power point presentation that contained two slides titled “Ronnie’s Rules” that outline 18 priorites, the first and last of which are “Always put God first, and stay within His will” and “Always remember God is good — all the time!”
                            In such a briefing, I read, "these are my standards and I expect you to live up to them." Inappropriate at the very least.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm normally the first to grind my teeth in disgust at the mention of "political correctness", either the phrase or some embodiment of it.
                              The first time I heard it, probably at 15 yo, I was aghast at one author perfectly described as "its suggestion of Stalinist orthodoxy".

                              I'm also a believer in the Christian God and not afraid in the least to proclaim it.

                              But in the case of business (which this clearly is), using the bully pulpit (no small amount of irony in that phrase here eh Teddy?) of leadership, managership, authority or command, talking about God has zero place IMO and my teeth grind even more at the mention of it.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment

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