Has the Eurozone crisis been solved ?

[Doktor]

Snapper,

"Still doesn't answer my question "What Greek democracy you are talking about?"" How about the referndum that never happened?

What about it? It never reached the parliament. There are other parties there but the Socialists.

"There are buyers for the islands - Chinese, Russian, Greek, you name it, the thing is the demand is lower then the offer now." I am not sure that the Islands are for sale but seriously no Greek assets are going to sell for a reasonable price at present to Greeks or anyone.

15 seconds on google greek islands, islands in greece

"The EU and the others just lost or about to loose their fair share and some more (50-75%)." The 'haircut' is on the banks, not other Governments.

By others I meant banks and other lenders.

"He was removed by whom? Some secret black hand dragged him down from the PM chair?" Funny how he went just after suggesting a referndum. Who took over? "After leaving the Bank of Greece in 2002, Papademos became the Vice President to Wim Duisenberg (and then Jean-Claude Trichet) at the European Central Bank from 2002 to 2010" Wiki. Figure it for yourself...

:slap: How I never thought of that. And why EU and the others turned on to Greeks? Iceland and Ireland were not enough? Who would benefit from all this?

"Care to translate me what he means? Hope he is not saying once their PM is out of the office anything he/she signed is void." Only the two main Parties signed up to this agreement. If they lose power are the new Government, who campaigned for a different policy bound by the pledge made by the previous Government? Seemingly if the electorate rejects the previous policy the new Government has a right to ignore something they never agreed to in the first place. This is why the EU have insisted that Greece change it's law so that creditors get payed back first. There has even been some suggestion that Greek elections should be 'postponed'.

How unfair. The lenders want to be secure they will get their money back. After been fooled 7 times so far.

"What Commissars were installed in Greece 2 years ago?" The troika. Now they will be permanently based in Greece of course.

Can you show me Press release or other document that appoints EU Commissar, delegate, envoy, whatever... in Greece?

Most obvoius way out is to let them return to the drachma.

Agree. Only their politicians for some reason don't like the idea.:whome:

[snapper]

What about it? It never reached the parliament. There are other parties there but the Socialists.

Why did it never reach Parliament? Why was ok before but immeadiately after raising the idea of a referndum he was not? If you do NOT see a hidden hand in this, nor in the 'chance' succession of a former VP of the ECB, nor the 'chance' succession of a former member of European Commission in Italy as unrelated then I cannot help you; we differ in our degrees of cynicsm.

15 seconds on google greek islands, islands in greece

I am not sure that these already privately owned islands constitute the 'family silver' nor form any part of the proposed privatisations.

Can you show me Press release or other document that appoints EU Commissar, delegate, envoy, whatever... in Greece?

Yep: "A nation already suffering from austerity fatigue now has to accept more pain plus two fresh conditions: the bailout money is to be put into an escrow account that will ensure it is used for debt repayments, and there is to be a permanent troika mission in Athens to monitor the reform programme." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...dependent-name

"Commissars from Brussels and the IMF will be installed in the Greek finance ministry to run the country’s economy. The Greek parliament has been ordered to amend the country’s constitution to impose a statutory obligation on the government to give debt-servicing payments priority over all other public spending." This euro deal is a recipe for revolution - Telegraph

Quite a feat realy; The Torygraph and The Gruniad agreeing!

Agree. Only their politicians for some reason don't like the idea.:whome:

Apparently not so: "If we achieve a Left-dominated government, we will politely tell the Troika to leave the country, and we may need to discuss an orderly return to the Drachma" Syriza MP Theodoros Dritsas. Hence why it has become law before the elections that creditors get payed first and why elections may need to be postponed. Now of course if Greece left the euro then they would be breaking the law anway so why not change the coming 'creditors law'?

You seem fixed on trying to make the Greeks pay their debts. What if they can't? This seems to be the most likely case. Sure they are guilty of some dodgy financial practices, so are most countries and EU certainly knew about these practices. The thing that scares the EU is IF Greece does return to the drachma firstly the debts repayments are completely gone for the forseeable future so banks and so on take losses on their Greek debts. Secondly if one country leaves there is a risk of 'cantagion' and money may flood out of Portugual, Spain etc in the same way; thus the talk of 'firewalls' to prop them up. Thirdly, in the longer term, perhaps if Greece does an Argentina and flourishes after brief recession other countries facing the 'austerity method' may think 'hey look at Greece, why don't we do the same?'.

Democraticly Greece would benefit from a return to the drachma, even if it has to leave the EU. Arguably it's recession may end sooner also. If it returns to the drachma then the debts can still be repayed though on a different time scale while at present nobody believes it can lower its debt ratio to 120% of GDP by 2020 and this means the debts won't get payed on the time scale envisioned so not much difference there. The real losers if Greece returns to the drachma is the Eurocrats, who would have financial trouble propping up the other countries first and see their grand super state project poked in the eye by a midget.

[Doktor]

Why did it never reach Parliament? Why was ok before but immeadiately after raising the idea of a referndum he was not? If you do NOT see a hidden hand in this, nor in the 'chance' succession of a former VP of the ECB, nor the 'chance' succession of a former member of European Commission in Italy as unrelated then I cannot help you; we differ in our degrees of cynicsm.

Tell me why it never reached the Parliament? Ah, the Greek parties made a deal. For me it is hard to believe someone can convince 1/2 the parliament in any country overnight to make a decision on whatever topic.

I am not sure that these already privately owned islands constitute the 'family silver' nor form any part of the proposed privatisations.

OK then. They were previously sold by the state, so it is not a big no, no as a matter of principles, but a propaganda for domestic public;
According to Guardian the state sells islands: Greece starts putting island land up for sale to save economy | World news | The Guardian

Yep: "A nation already suffering from austerity fatigue now has to accept more pain plus two fresh conditions: the bailout money is to be put into an escrow account that will ensure it is used for debt repayments, and there is to be a permanent troika mission in Athens to monitor the reform programme." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...dependent-name

"Commissars from Brussels and the IMF will be installed in the Greek finance ministry to run the country’s economy. The Greek parliament has been ordered to amend the country’s constitution to impose a statutory obligation on the government to give debt-servicing payments priority over all other public spending." This euro deal is a recipe for revolution - Telegraph

Quite a feat realy; The Torygraph and The Gruniad agreeing!

We are not on a same wavelength obviously... I asked who were the Commissars in the past 2 years, you send me news report some day in near future EU/ECB/IMF/Merkel/Sarkozy/Junker/... will send someone. I think Venizelos refused such an option, tho Greeks refused many things in the past.

Apparently not so: "If we achieve a Left-dominated government, we will politely tell the Troika to leave the country, and we may need to discuss an orderly return to the Drachma" Syriza MP Theodoros Dritsas. Hence why it has become law before the elections that creditors get payed first and why elections may need to be postponed. Now of course if Greece left the euro then they would be breaking the law anway so why not change the coming 'creditors law'?

Who are these Syriza coalition really? Radical left with <15% approval rate is what I know. Yep, creditors got really scared from them. Seriously, even if they win, what credibility would such government have in the world? Oh and that way the debt will stay + some interests for the future governments to pay them

You seem fixed on trying to make the Greeks pay their debts. What if they can't? This seems to be the most likely case. Sure they are guilty of some dodgy financial practices, so are most countries and EU certainly knew about these practices. The thing that scares the EU is IF Greece does return to the drachma firstly the debts repayments are completely gone for the forseeable future so banks and so on take losses on their Greek debts. Secondly if one country leaves there is a risk of 'cantagion' and money may flood out of Portugual, Spain etc in the same way; thus the talk of 'firewalls' to prop them up. Thirdly, in the longer term, perhaps if Greece does an Argentina and flourishes after brief recession other countries facing the 'austerity method' may think 'hey look at Greece, why don't we do the same?'.

I am not fixed on Greeks to pay the debts. As they are my neighbors, it is in my best interest things in Greece to be better then anywhere, but they are not. Just don't agree (or can't see your big picture) that someone else will make huge money on their backs. More over, I don't agree EU or someone else is imposing dictatorship in Greece. However, Greeks asked for this 'help' and got it. Who are we to judge if it is good or bad for them? I am willing to bet Greece will end up paying only 20% with 80% write offs.

Democraticly Greece would benefit from a return to the drachma, even if it has to leave the EU. Arguably it's recession may end sooner also. If it returns to the drachma then the debts can still be repayed though on a different time scale while at present nobody believes it can lower its debt ratio to 120% of GDP by 2020 and this means the debts won't get payed on the time scale envisioned so not much difference there. The real losers if Greece returns to the drachma is the Eurocrats, who would have financial trouble propping up the other countries first and see their grand super state project poked in the eye by a midget.

I can't see Greece rising on its own. As I said, even Greeks with money don't believe in that, hence why they relocate them.

Eurocrats are doomed in my view. Being raised in smaller EU (Yugoslavia) I can see the end of it. It wont be the Greeks or the Germans who will start the end, but the Dutch or Luxembourg (someone small with strong economy).

[snapper]

"We are not on a same wavelength obviously... I asked who were the Commissars in the past 2 years" What do you call a troika of unelected officials from outside the country who 'oversee' their efforts to reduce the deficit (their budget)?

The real problem here is the trade imbalance. Similar problems occur all the time; between the US and China for example. In this case the US accuses China of keeping its currency artificialy low (in relation to the $) which makes it more expensive for the US to export to China and thus fuels the trade imbalance. In exactly the same way Greece could say that the German currency is undervalued compared to their own but within the euro structure we cannot alter the values of the currencies between North and South. However in the US/China case China uses the foreign currency it earns from the trade imbalance to at least buy US debt... in a way they are lending the money they make back to the US. Nor do they seek to impose 'austerity programmes' (and interfer politicaly) on the US to make them 'more competitive' with the under valued yuan in exchange for their loans. The two economies are NOT the same and the US is never going to become China so if the US was to become 'competitive' with China on the low valued yuan they too would face decade(s) of austerity. Of course realisticly the yuan probably is undervalued and all currencies should be alowed to 'float' freely. The problem with the euro project is that this cannot happen. Realisticly right now the Greek currency is worth say 1/5th of the German but the euro prevents this true representation. All this meddling in the internal politics (troikas and the like) of the countries whos currencies are over valued does will not address the real problem, nor will lending cheap money to banks; imbalances in trade are next to impossible to resolve in a fixed exchange rate system without surplus countries accepting that they have as much of an obligation to do something about them as the offending deficit countries. (Keynes)

[Doktor]

"We are not on a same wavelength obviously... I asked who were the Commissars in the past 2 years" What do you call a troika of unelected officials from outside the country who 'oversee' their efforts to reduce the deficit (their budget)?

IDK, Concerned guys, maybe. They are concerned their money wont get burned. Again. If it wasn't obvious in the past, now it is, and that is don't lend Greeks money without firm guarantees - they forge books. Would you give me any money without preconditions? If so, 10k (euro, pounds, dollars) will be great. After you will write off 50% borrow me some 10-20k more, just in case. Do it several times and don't worry, I pay back, I promise!

As per democracy comments, your own country accepted a verdict from a court that is not on UK soil. A verdict that says you must keep a terrorist free. Why you accepted that if we exclude all the agreements, treaties you signed and that are binding to you? Same goes to Greece.

The real problem here is the trade imbalance. Similar problems occur all the time; between the US and China for example. In this case the US accuses China of keeping its currency artificialy low (in relation to the $) which makes it more expensive for the US to export to China and thus fuels the trade imbalance. In exactly the same way Greece could say that the German currency is undervalued compared to their own but within the euro structure we cannot alter the values of the currencies between North and South. However in the US/China case China uses the foreign currency it earns from the trade imbalance to at least buy US debt... in a way they are lending the money they make back to the US. Nor do they seek to impose 'austerity programmes' (and interfer politicaly) on the US to make them 'more competitive' with the under valued yuan in exchange for their loans. The two economies are NOT the same and the US is never going to become China so if the US was to become 'competitive' with China on the low valued yuan they too would face decade(s) of austerity. Of course realisticly the yuan probably is undervalued and all currencies should be alowed to 'float' freely. The problem with the euro project is that this cannot happen. Realisticly right now the Greek currency is worth say 1/5th of the German but the euro prevents this true representation. All this meddling in the internal politics (troikas and the like) of the countries whos currencies are over valued does will not address the real problem, nor will lending cheap money to banks; imbalances in trade are next to impossible to resolve in a fixed exchange rate system without surplus countries accepting that they have as much of an obligation to do something about them as the offending deficit countries. (Keynes)

When you go into contracts you don't oblige them only when they suit you. I think the Germans and the French are not happy to just pour their money to the drain, too. While we can argue if there is some benefit for the big two, what about the other countries who contribute?

Interesting how Greece is USA and Germany is China in your analogy.

EU is number one trading partner to China, yet we don't see them so willing to return the earnings in EU. They can't see the profit over here, unlike in the USA.

[snapper]

As per democracy comments, your own country accepted a verdict from a court that is not on UK soil. A verdict that says you must keep a terrorist free.

If you think I agree with that you have mistaken me to an almost dangerous extent. We have boats and planes, we have illegal immigrants; problem solved. Dangerous ones I wouldn't even let go to for others to deal with, it is respectful to Abu Qatadas own ideolgy to treat him as he would us and as his law ascribes. It is a good example of how our enemies are using our 'enlightened' laws against us but when they do not believe in our in laws we should treat them as enemies under their own laws. As for this court I'd let them sue me; what about the 'human rights' of those he endangers? It was Conservative Party policy to withdraw from this Convention I believe and produce a UK Bill of Rights but sadly we rely on the pinko Lib Dems to maintain a majority.

EU is number one trading partner to China, yet we don't see them so willing to return the earnings in EU. They can't see the profit over here, unlike in the USA.

Well this is likely to be the next upcoming problem in this 'saga'. Why should the Chinese and those who pay into the IMF (including Britain where for the most part we disagree with the management of this problem) put in more money when the Germans apparently are unwilling to do so? "European solidarity is not an end in itself and should not be a one-way street. Germany’s engagement has reached it limits" says the FDP in Germany (German showdown with IMF looms as Bundestag blocks rescue funds - Telegraph). It's their currency and the Keynesian policy should apply to them first before their trading partners.

Also the reason, I suspect, why the Chinese wish to buy more $ than euros is precisely because of these trade imbalances within the eurozone and the way they are being (mis)managed they regard the $ as a more stable bet.

Nor actualy do I see why the IMF is invited to contribute to all these bailouts. California, I believe, is nearly broke but does the IMF propose to lend them money? The IMF should, in my opinion not have any part in propping up a currency union that is by nature part of a political project.

[Doktor]

If you think I agree with that you have mistaken me to an almost dangerous extent. We have boats and planes, we have illegal immigrants; problem solved. Dangerous ones I wouldn't even let go to for others to deal with, it is respectful to Abu Qatadas own ideolgy to treat him as he would us and as his law ascribes. It is a good example of how our enemies are using our 'enlightened' laws against us but when they do not believe in our in laws we should treat them as enemies under their own laws. As for this court I'd let them sue me; what about the 'human rights' of those he endangers? It was Conservative Party policy to withdraw from this Convention I believe and produce a UK Bill of Rights but sadly we rely on the pinko Lib Dems to maintain a majority.

As a matter of fact I thought you oppose that decision, that's why I brought it to the table. Isn't that the same stupidity the Greeks did and how democracy works? Elected people signed a document where they transfer the power (of those who will be elected afterwards) to unelected body - in this case ECHR (i think it was theirs ruling) - for the imaginary ad hoc benefit. I don't see Brits burning London over this interference from aside.

Well this is likely to be the next upcoming problem in this 'saga'. Why should the Chinese and those who pay into the IMF (including Britain where for the most part we disagree with the management of this problem) put in more money when the Germans apparently are unwilling to do so? "European solidarity is not an end in itself and should not be a one-way street. Germany’s engagement has reached it limits" says the FDP in Germany (German showdown with IMF looms as Bundestag blocks rescue funds - Telegraph). It's their currency and the Keynesian policy should apply to them first before their trading partners.

Also the reason, I suspect, why the Chinese wish to buy more $ than euros is precisely because of these trade imbalances within the eurozone and the way they are being (mis)managed they regard the $ as a more stable bet.

I think this is what I said ;)

Nor actualy do I see why the IMF is invited to contribute to all these bailouts. California, I believe, is nearly broke but does the IMF propose to lend them money? The IMF should, in my opinion not have any part in propping up a currency union that is by nature part of a political project.

California is not a sovereign (oh the irony) state, member of IMF.

[snapper]

As a matter of fact I thought you oppose that decision, that's why I brought it to the table. Isn't that the same stupidity the Greeks did and how democracy works? Elected people signed a document where they transfer the power (of those who will be elected afterwards) to unelected body - in this case ECHR (i think it was theirs ruling) - for the imaginary ad hoc benefit. I don't see Brits burning London over this interference from aside.

Is that a reason to never regain your independance?

[Doktor]

Is that a reason to never regain your independance?

Nope. Anyway, this is not what Greeks ask for. They only want everything as it was - bonuses for washing hands, 14th salary, someone else paying the bills... At least this is what I get so far.

[snapper]

Is that what the Italians and Spanish want too? Apparently the Greeks actualy work more than anyone else; BBC News - Are Greeks the hardest workers in Europe?

The Spanish case is telling: "The Spanish have good reason to feel maligned by North Europe's self-serving narrative of the EMU crisis. They never violated the Maastricht debt rules. They ran a budget surplus of 2pc of GDP during the boom.

Private credit spiralled out of control in part because the European Central Bank missed its inflation target every month for almost nine years and gunned the eurozone M3 money supply at double the bank's own target rate to help Germany, then in trouble." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...in-Europe.html

[Doktor]

Is that what the Italians and Spanish want too? Apparently the Greeks actualy work more than anyone else; BBC News - Are Greeks the hardest workers in Europe?

The Spanish case is telling: "The Spanish have good reason to feel maligned by North Europe's self-serving narrative of the EMU crisis. They never violated the Maastricht debt rules. They ran a budget surplus of 2pc of GDP during the boom.

Private credit spiralled out of control in part because the European Central Bank missed its inflation target every month for almost nine years and gunned the eurozone M3 money supply at double the bank's own target rate to help Germany, then in trouble." Spanish revolt brews as national economic rearmament begins in Europe - Telegraph

With most hours at work they are nowhere in the production list. Also, remember they retire youngest.

[snapper]

Them naughty Irish, ungrateful for bailouts etc, are going to play with democracy! "Premier Enda Kenny said Dublin was acting on legal advice from Ireland's attorney-general that "on balance" the fiscal compact requires a vote under the country's constitution. "It gives the Irish people the opportunity to reaffirm Ireland's commitment to membership of the euro," he told ashen-faced members of the Dail." Irish EU treaty vote threatens chaos - Telegraph

Just shows how far the 'European project' has strayed from the liberal democratic path. Will we see a 'technocrat' in Dublin next?

[snapper]

It seems the 'experts' disagree on whether Greece has defaulted. The International Swaps and Derivatives Association’s Determinations Committee say no: No Greek CDS payout on swap, panel says - MarketWatch however Fitch says it 'amounts' to a default: Writing off half of Greece

What is so hard to figure out? If you can't pay your debts and ask your creditors to wipe out 70% of them then you are NOT paying them and this is a default. Of course the Swaps and Derivatives Committee was always going to say that it's not a 'default'; they have to pay out on insurance if they accept it IS a default.

[Versus]

What was the real point of the creation of European union anyhow?

[snapper]

To stop another European war.