Are Historians Now Overstating the Role of the U.S.S.R. in defeating Nazi Germany?

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,

Given its geographic position relative to manchuria and the coast (where Japan did have an advantage - and air power) I could see Japan taking & holding Vladivostock & the land on the coastal side of the Amur River while Russia was weak. I suspect that a strong enough force dug in along that line would be difficult to dislodge with the forces available to Stalin in 1942 & '43. Indeed, the Japanese would have a distinct logistical advantage. Sakhalin would also go & would be very hard to get back. However, the Kwangtung Army wasn't going to war for a sliver of land & half an island. This means that they will overstretch themselves & will pay for it dearly. I suspect that first winter will be bad. If they make it to a second it will be much worse.

I seriously doubt the Japanese had the tenacity, determination, the grit, the stomache, and the equipment to fight a Stalingrad.

[zraver]

I seriously doubt the Japanese had the tenacity, determination, the grit, the stomache, and the equipment to fight a Stalingrad.

Manila says otherwise less than 20,000 defenders completely cut off with no hope of supplies or reinforcements fought literally to the last man.

[Officer of Engineers]

Manila says otherwise less than 20,000 defenders completely cut off with no hope of supplies or reinforcements fought literally to the last man.

Stalingrad was more than just defenders fighting to the death.

[TopHatter]

I seriously doubt the Japanese had the tenacity, determination, the grit, the stomache, and the equipment to fight a Stalingrad.

Sir, doesn't virtually every island battle the Japanese fought show that they did indeed have those things?
Perhaps not the equipment but "tenacity, determination, the grit, the stomache" are all things the Japanese Army had in spades, infamously so.

[Officer of Engineers]

Perhaps not the equipment but "tenacity, determination, the grit, the stomache" are all things the Japanese Army had in spades, infamously so.

Not an apt comparison. The Japanese lost those battles before the 1st American stepped foot onto shore, except maybe Guadal Canal and there, the Marines left, not killed to the last man.

Stalingrad was a battle determined to kill 6th Army.

[TopHatter]

Not an apt comparison. The Japanese lost those battles before the 1st American stepped foot onto shore, except maybe Guadal Canal and there, the Marines left, not killed to the last man.

Stalingrad was a battle determined to kill 6th Army.

I'm a bit confused (big surprise)...
Which role is the IJA playing in this Stalingrad scenario?

And when you refer to Guadalcanal and the Marines leaving...what do you mean?

[Officer of Engineers]

Simply put, Soviets died wanting to kill Germans. Japanese just wanted to die with honour. That is the big difference.

[Chogy]

An interesting notion. Would we have seen Stalingrad-like combat if the nukes had not been dropped, and the allies had invaded Japan?

To create a Stalingrad scenario would require the Japanese to be able to pour troops and supplies into a city in a near endless stream. This was impossible in the Pacific Islands battles, where essentially all of them were fought only with the personnel already landed. Reinforcements were nearly impossible given the U.S. Navy's presence. But on the Japanese main land... maybe.

My thought would be no because of U.S. air power. Interdicting men and materiel flowing to the battle would be bread-and-butter work for P-47's and P-51's. I think it would be the style of battle rather than Japanese mindset that would prevent a Stalingrad from taking place.

[TopHatter]

An interesting notion. Would we have seen Stalingrad-like combat if the nukes had not been dropped, and the allies had invaded Japan?

Chogy, I highly recommend "HELL TO PAY: Operation DOWNFALL and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947" by D.M. Giangreco

Some of the estimated figures will likely make you physically ill.

[zraver]

An interesting notion. Would we have seen Stalingrad-like combat if the nukes had not been dropped, and the allies had invaded Japan?

To create a Stalingrad scenario would require the Japanese to be able to pour troops and supplies into a city in a near endless stream. This was impossible in the Pacific Islands battles, where essentially all of them were fought only with the personnel already landed. Reinforcements were nearly impossible given the U.S. Navy's presence. But on the Japanese main land... maybe.

My thought would be no because of U.S. air power. Interdicting men and materiel flowing to the battle would be bread-and-butter work for P-47's and P-51's. I think it would be the style of battle rather than Japanese mindset that would prevent a Stalingrad from taking place.

Also twp other important facts 1 most major Japanese cities are coastal and in range of literally hundreds of 8"+ guns. 2 the wooden construction means a fight in the ashes not the rubble.

[troung]

Simply put, Soviets died wanting to kill Germans. Japanese just wanted to die with honour. That is the big difference.

Millions or so also gave up without putting up much of a fight.

[Officer of Engineers]

I think it would be the style of battle rather than Japanese mindset that would prevent a Stalingrad from taking place.

It would also be the mindset. The Japanese simply did not have it. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria showed just how primitive their thinking was despite years of preparation and years of available study of Soviet military doctrine. They did not or could not learn from the lessons inflicted on the Germans.

Millions or so also gave up without putting up much of a fight.

The context was Stalingrad at which by that point, Slavs have learned that dying in combat was preferable than dying at Nazi pleasure.

[zraver]

It would also be the mindset. The Japanese simply did not have it. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria showed just how primitive their thinking was despite years of preparation and years of available study of Soviet military doctrine. They did not or could not learn from the lessons inflicted on the Germans.

Could not, the blood and steel of Imperial Japan was devoted to the navy in an increasing share after 1941. Even into early 1943 however, the Soviets would have been badly handled by the Japanese in Manchuria. However from 1943 on the Japanese strength went into terminal decline.

The context was Stalingrad at which by that point, Slavs have learned that dying in combat was preferable than dying at Nazi pleasure.

Sir Japanese defensive engineering on the Islands and in Manila showed that while as far as tenacity and grit at least they had no equals- neither did they have any peers in defensive works. take the best Soviet formations of the war and stick them on an island in the same numbers and they would likely have done worse than the Japanese against the complete and total 3D battle space domination by the Americans.

[Officer of Engineers]

Even into early 1943 however, the Soviets would have been badly handled by the Japanese in Manchuria.

I strongly doubt that very much. As the old saying goes, amateurs think tactics. Professionals think logistics. By 1943, the Soviets were decades ahead of the Japanese who could not even put enough ammo together to take on Chinese armies.

And I hope you're not suggesting that the Kwantung Army had a chance in hell against the forces of Operation URANUS or Operation MARS.

Sir Japanese defensive engineering on the Islands and in Manila showed that while as far as tenacity and grit at least they had no equals- neither did they have any peers in defensive works. take the best Soviet formations of the war and stick them on an island in the same numbers and they would likely have done worse than the Japanese against the complete and total 3D battle space domination by the Americans.

Well, isn't that the point? The Soviets would NOT have committed the same numbers.

[clackers]

The luftwaffe flattened all of Stalingrad and Leningrad between 41-43. Tank Factory 183 responsible for the T34 was and the Stalingrad Tank gun factory was moved as well to the Urals they called it Tankograd I believe. Anyway, the massive air raids supported the German infantry. Almost every building was dropped and house to house and factory to factory fighting ensued...same with Leningrad. Most of the T34s were destroyed Stukas or ME109s with tank busters. The Soviet air force was grounded due to air superiority fighters of the Germans. Matter of fact I think it was the Volgograd Tractor factory where vicious fighting took place. Germans leveled that complex. Maybe I should make it clear that I was talking about the western sections of Russia where the germans were and not the entire country.

Tanker, there was very little attack on Soviet industry during the war by the Luftwaffe. The major factories had been relocated to the east during '41 and the German bombers lacked the range to reach them.

Do you have figures to show most T-34s were destroyed by aircraft?