2 Army Brigades to leave Europe

[Mihais]

Dok,there was no need to do anything in Lybia.If,in an extreme case,ground forces would have been needed the French army could have taken anything ,anywhere, 24 hours after the green light.
About power projection,Africa and ME(Turkey,Israel and Iran excepted) are at the mercy of a European task force if a ''coalition of the willing'' exists,as it was in Lybia.Lybia btw,for all its futility showed that a few dozens,hundreds at most ,French and British SF can take out a country if minimum conditions on the ground exist.Conditions which can be created,if they don't occur naturally.

[kato]

If,in an extreme case,ground forces would have been needed the French army could have taken anything ,anywhere, 24 hours after the green light.

And if real ground troops had been needed, Germany, France and the UK would have had a brigade down there in under two weeks. Each.

Libya showed where a couple deficiencies of European militaries are though. Like the inability of the British forces to work without US ELINT, in particular space-based. Or the general need for more tanker aircraft, which is being taken care of with ongoing procurement (in particular through A400M). Or the need for more drones. Or, for that matter, the lack of political cohesion showing in e.g. Italy being reluctant to host French aircraft for a while or Germany going neutral and doing its own thing down there early on.

[Doktor]

Dok,there was no need to do anything in Lybia.If,in an extreme case,ground forces would have been needed the French army could have taken anything ,anywhere, 24 hours after the green light.
About power projection,Africa and ME(Turkey,Israel and Iran excepted) are at the mercy of a European task force if a ''coalition of the willing'' exists,as it was in Lybia.Lybia btw,for all its futility showed that a few dozens,hundreds at most ,French and British SF can take out a country if minimum conditions on the ground exist.Conditions which can be created,if they don't occur naturally.

Libya was good lesson. If learned, great.

As per your remark on SF's, I wonder why the coalition was needed wrt Iraq and A-stan. Hardly US lacks any SF ;)

Let's suppose roles in Iran are reversed with EU all itchy and US halting/delaying any military ops. After all, EU has more interests in non-nuclear Iran (or should have anyway).Can EU park a fleet there with few decks or subs and actually start and end an operation without US involvement? Can it sustain a 3 year deployment on her own? I have doubts.

[kato]

After all, EU has more interests in non-nuclear Iran (or should have anyway).

Considering there's 10,000 jobs hanging on trade with Iran in Germany there won't be any such ridiculous notions.

And why would you need a fleet with carriers for Iran? Just remind Turkey that we were in Incirlik in 1991 and that we've been looking the other way regarding certain people living east of it - so we better fuckin' get the place again now.

[Mihais]

AOr, for that matter, the lack of political cohesion showing in e.g. Italy being reluctant to host French aircraft for a while or Germany going neutral and doing its own thing down there early on.

If it's in the interest of all,everyone will step in.If it's not,your political cohesion ends right there.Politically,Lybia showed the way forward.

Libya was good lesson. If learned, great.

As per your remark on SF's, I wonder why the coalition was needed wrt Iraq and A-stan. Hardly US lacks any SF ;)

Never enough SF.Just as never enough ammo.

Let's suppose roles in Iran are reversed with EU all itchy and US halting/delaying any military ops. After all, EU has more interests in non-nuclear Iran (or should have anyway).Can EU park a fleet there with few decks or subs and actually start and end an operation without US involvement? Can it sustain a 3 year deployment on her own? I have doubts.

If we want to,we'll create capabilities in 6 months,train them 2 years ,then take out every living being worth shooting in Iran in 6 months.
Parking a fleet is a temporary solution.Always has and always will be.No reason to let good ships rust for 3 years,or even for one day.Willpower is the secret.

[Doktor]

Considering there's 10,000 jobs hanging on trade with Iran in Germany there won't be any such ridiculous notions.

Your greens were up take off French train with nuclear waste. Guess good jobs were at stake there, too. Yeah I know that the train arrived at the final destination, but the notion was there.

And why would you need a fleet with carriers for Iran? Just remind Turkey that we were in Incirlik in 1991 and that we've been looking the other way regarding certain people living east of it - so we better fuckin' get the place again now.

The thing is doing it on your own. Turkey may deny it, then what? Economical-political pressure? And if that fails?
EU needed USA backing in all the recent conflicts in her back yard: Croatia (not that much), Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya, even here in 2001. Has anything changed?

[kato]

EU needed USA backing in all the recent conflicts in her back yard: Croatia (not that much), Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya, even here in 2001.

Eh, in most of those cases the only reason for that was that the EU lacked political cohesion, and did not back such ops wholeheartedly. Including after the US intervened on its own, pulling us in.