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Has Large Scale Arty in the US Military become irrelevant?

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  • #61
    lemontree Reply

    "That is a good amount of fire power, but your unit is an SP arty unit...would a towed arty unit have similar allotment of MGs?"

    No. Nor would towed arty likely play a prominent role in a high intensity modern conflict involving American forces. During DESERT STORM, our only towed arty belonged to the 82nd Airborne, 101st Air Assault and Marine units employed with JTCF (Joint Task Force Coalition Forces). Gun Grape would be able to discuss their organization for combat but even the Marines employed nearly all their self-propelled assets.

    "Concertina and minefields would be a real waste of resources and time, as the bty would moving ahead all the time to keep up with the advancing columns..."

    Not necessarily true. In Europe many of our initial defense positions would be planned for such. If able to occupy with sufficient warning then we'd do all that was humanly possible to harden in the time and with the resources available.

    Gun sections follow an acronym known as T-LASBAPP (Trails, Lay, Aiming Points, Site to Crest, Boresight, Azimuth markers, piece displacement and position improvement).

    You always improve your position until the moment you displace.

    "...Unless deployed in Afghanistan or in a Vietnam type conflict where inflitrating enemy is a major problem..."

    I'm unaware of a single fire support base in Afghanistan that's had its local security seriously challenged by either direct fire or infantry assault. Nor have the taliban attempted infiltration of sappers into those positions.

    Vietnam was a mid-intensity battle. Fire Support Bases hardened against both direct assault and indirect fires. Both were commonplace. Moreover, it was a rare artillery unit that didn't have at least an infantry platoon providing local security.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    • #62
      I have noted a lot of folks talking about mortars.

      Mortars are great...I was a mortar maggot...I had both a 81mm and 107mm platoon back in the day. I have followed the growth and use of the 120mm mortar in western armies.

      That said, a mortar is no substitute for artillery. Mortars fill a special niche; they are an excellent gotta-have-it-right-now weapon. They are also the absolute best at illumination missions. However, they lack the range and the wide range of shell/fuze options that tube artillery gives a commander...and this includes 105mm gun/howitzers not just 155mm.

      There are ample examples from early in Afghanistan when the 10 Mountain Division and 101st Airborne tried to substitute 120mm mortars for their M119A2 105mm howitzers...it did not work out well.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
        I have noted a lot of folks talking about mortars.

        Mortars are great...I was a mortar maggot...I had both a 81mm and 107mm platoon back in the day. I have followed the growth and use of the 120mm mortar in western armies.

        That said, a mortar is no substitute for artillery. Mortars fill a special niche; they are an excellent gotta-have-it-right-now weapon. They are also the absolute best at illumination missions. However, they lack the range and the wide range of shell/fuze options that tube artillery gives a commander...and this includes 105mm gun/howitzers not just 155mm.

        There are ample examples from early in Afghanistan when the 10 Mountain Division and 101st Airborne tried to substitute 120mm mortars for their M119A2 105mm howitzers...it did not work out well.
        Albany,
        I've been reading about some recent attempts to extend the "hitting" power of the 120mm mortar including some specialized "smart" and/or rocket assisted 120mm rounds that are designed to significantly extend the range of the 120mm mortar - I think they are talking about ranges out to 15 -18 licks. Can't remember the specifics at the moment but one I recall was something the US Marines were looking, something called the EFS I think. Would that "do the trick" in terms of making them a suitable replacement for the 105? Also in the case of 101st what was the specific problem? Cheers
        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Monash View Post
          Albany,
          I've been reading about some recent attempts to extend the "hitting" power of the 120mm mortar including some specialized "smart" and/or rocket assisted 120mm rounds that are designed to significantly extend the range of the 120mm mortar - I think they are talking about ranges out to 15 -18 licks. Can't remember the specifics at the moment but one I recall was something the US Marines were looking, something called the EFS I think. Would that "do the trick" in terms of making them a suitable replacement for the 105? Also in the case of 101st what was the specific problem? Cheers
          Monash,

          1. My thinking is they are complimentary weapon systems, not competeing.

          By their nature they have different roles. A mortar is mobile, quick to set up and tear down and easily deployable...but it is inherently not as accurate as tube artillery. Mortars also have increased time of flight over artillery, especially at longer ranges. Remember, the vast majority of fire missions are going to use conventional rounds, not the exotics. Too expensive and very few armies can afford them on a totally wide scale basis. Also, when push comes to shove, you can't crank the 120mm mortar down 0 mils elevation and fire an HE shell fuzed for muzzle action!

          2. The problem with the 101st and 10th MTN was they did not bring their M119s to A'stan...the depended totally on 120mm mortars for fire support and they proved inadequate for many of the reasons I mentioned in para 1.

          Now, I am coming at this from an American perspective. I am not saying the a different mortar/gun mix won't make a difference in other armies. It is just that US forces have to be able to deploy and fight anywhere. We can afford to change our clothing dependent on the geography but not our weapons.
          Last edited by Albany Rifles; 09 Dec 11,, 14:40.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #65
            Re the comments on gun battery defences, in the early to mid 90s from memory Royal Australian Artillery batteries had a machine gun per gun detachment (m-60 then replaced by a Minimi), one in the command post and one between the truck drivers coming to 8. We also had 4 x 84mm Carl Gustavs and would have been issued with 66 mm LAWS and Claymores. The standard doctrine in a conflict was to colocate a battery with one of the supported battalions company's. It was tested in the Battle of Coral in Vietnam and was effective in defeating a battalion sized NVA attack.
            Last edited by Aussiegunner; 10 Dec 11,, 02:09.
            "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

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            • #66
              Hmm, i guess that's why the German military is thought to be traditionally MG-centric sometimes.

              The battalion i was in (NBC defense) operated in combat support at the same level as artillery. Meaning usually with single companies colocated with combat troops securing the rear flanks, located behind the actual fighting. Armament for defense against incursions, flanking etc at company level included in the early 90s some 36 MG3, 20 PzF3 launchers and four 20mm guns. They cut the 20mm's in 1996 to the outrage of most older NCOs in the unit i served.

              Around the same time an artillery battalion with two shooting batteries, a recce and a supply battery would total around 100-120 MG3, 50-60 PzF3 plus 9 20mm guns (on IFVs) plus a couple ATGM.
              Last edited by kato; 10 Dec 11,, 11:21.

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              • #67
                A USMC Direct Support Firing Battery in the 1990s would have 14 .50cal MGs, 10 Mk-19 40mm MGs. 8 M-60E-3 MGs in addition to each section having at least 1 SAW. A Firing Battery had more Machine Guns than A Infantry Battalion.

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                • #68
                  FYI...US Army firing battery crew served weapons loud out.

                  M119 105mm Btry IBCT

                  M2 3 EA
                  M240G 12 EA
                  MK 19 4

                  M109 155 SP BTRY HBCT or FIRES BDE

                  M2 11 EA
                  M240G 4 EA
                  MK 19 10 EA

                  M777 155MM BTRY TOWED FIRES BDE

                  M2 3 EA
                  M240G 21 EA
                  MK 19 9 EA

                  M777 155MM BTRY STRYKER

                  M2 7 EA
                  M240G 8 EA
                  MK19 15 EA



                  All M249 SAWs are allocated to HHBs and TABs.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • #69
                    Enormous amount of firepower... the random NSVs and PKMs we have look like a joke when comparing to some of these.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by mustavaris View Post
                      Enormous amount of firepower... the random NSVs and PKMs we have look like a joke when comparing to some of these.
                      Let's hope you don't have to use them!!!
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by albany rifles View Post

                        all m249 saws are allocated to hhbs and tabs.
                        TAB

                        Take A Break

                        Titties And Beer

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                          TAB

                          Take A Break

                          Titties And Beer
                          All the above PLUS Target Acquisition Battery!

                          Once a Marine....
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • #73
                            Gotta hope so. Conflict with Russia is extremely unlikely as of today, but the problem is that you never know what that country is going to be like or be a doing after a decade from now. In any case, we are scaling down the number of troops from 350K to 250K so I would assume that the new units will get more of the heavier gear. All of the PKMs and NSVs we have are relatively new so there is no need to scrap them

                            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Let's hope you don't have to use them!!!

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                            • #74
                              NSV? 12.7mm HMG?

                              Damn all these grunty acronyms. Can't you all talk like normal people? ;)

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                              • #75
                                Chogy Reply

                                NSV (named for designers Nikitin, Sokolov, and Volkov) HMG (Heavy Machine Gun) 12.7mm (think .50cal)-



                                Hope that helps...

                                "Damn all these grunty acronyms. Can't you all talk like normal people?;)"

                                Grunts aren't normal. Think about it-the spirit of the bayonet means plunging cold steel into another man's innards and de-gutting him.

                                Not exactly normal dinner-time discourse...
                                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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