The Problem with Israel

[Genosaurer]

-Deploy UN peacekeeping troops in Palestine to make sure both sides comply

How'd that work out for Israel in 1967?

[Chunder]

Wow. Just wow. Listen, friend, I'd love to reply now, but I'm going to sleep because I've got to get up early in order to watch the Rugby. I'll hit you up with a reply at some point tomorrow. I've got the feeling that in the meantime some of the other folks here will reply.

Don't worry about it bloke. This is a constant thing you feel compelled to do & I don't think anyone that's hovered about the boards for any period of time and read your posts, every time this subject comes up, seriously expects you to expel time and energy into this for ever and eternity. This sorta stuff is a disruption to your studies.

Unfortunately since your the only assh... oops I mean Israeli here it means that there isn't many to bat from your perspective :P.

Out of interest - if he is under 21 - I think the term is Master :p

[Chunder]

I'm the forum clown. I have no illusions.

I'm perfectly happy to admit that alot of the people on WAB, hell MOST of the people on WAB are way smarter than I and understand the situation way better than I ever will.

I dunno, if your the forum clown, you got some hella smack ability, check out the guns in your last post! GUN!

[Doktor]

"Violence claims civilian lives in the Strip on a regular basis. In recent months, many people have been killed or injured in escalating violence and sometimes even in open hostilities. Security incidents in the area between Gaza and Israel frequently result in loss of life or in destruction of property or livelihoods. We deplore the civilian casualties and continue to remind all parties that civilians must be spared the effects of the hostilities. Every feasible precaution must be taken to avoid civilian casualties."

In which of these incidents it was IDF starting it? From what I get on the TV and from the net it is always IDF seeking someone who did something bad to Israeli civilians.

I know that when looking in the hard numbers it looks like Israel is the wrong doer. Tell me would you feel any better with US helping Israel if Hamas had state of the art weapons and able to inflict more damage? It's about the difference in tools, everything else (but the death toll) would be the same.

Kosovo is not under an indefinate blockade.

Yet they have 40+% unemployment and need foreign help. I was showing you that independence is not problem solver.

I miswrote that. 50% of the populaiton is under age 18.

Why they have so many kids if they can't support them?

Other countries need help too, but we're talking about Israel right now. If you are being sarcastic...dont be. A 30% unemployment rate is terrible for a European nation. Actually, for any nation.

They are that high because of the decade+ long blockade to Serbia that we willingly supported and from the 5 years long blockade from Greece.
Add the 1999 refugees from Kosovo that we willingly accepted to help them (500 000 to 2 000 000 population) and now the strikes in Greece that deny us the sea port in Thessaloniki.
Well, these are official numbers, now help us ;)

I saw. What? This is about a blockade of Gaza.

So we can just close both eyes on the same problems elsewhere? I am showing you that the Pals are not the only ones who have these problems and they are not genuine because of Israel, but of leaders stupidity. My country included.

Please read the actual article before you make comments like this. It was linked right there. Gaza: no end in sight to hardship and despair

Oh, but I read it and made the comments, it was you who didn't took time to think about them. Stop being in the defensive mode. Noone is attacking you personally, but the ideas you preach.

Tell me, ever been in Israel or occupied Palestinian territories?

Ever been to Jordan, Egypt or Syria?

[YellowFever]

....check out the guns in your last post! GUN!

You caught the bolded part, didn't ya? ;)

Hopefully Ghost catches it also.....

[tankie]

I have many friends who were or are serving in the military as well as many classmates. I am not unaware of the practices of the military. Regardless of how you dress it up, it is an instiution made to train efficient soldiers, not good people. There are ethics components sometimes--but studies have shown that they are woefully lacking. No matter how you dress it up, the military is about making warriors who are obedient at the drop of a hat. If you have people questioning orders in the middle of a battle, you lose discipline and efficiency. That is why soldiers shoot civilians in all militaries, that is why people can say "it was orders". Certain branches of the military are worse offenders than others.

Also, as much as it may not make you happy, I don't want to hear any more "fighting for your freedoms" rhetoric. Every time a soldier fights, it is not for my freedom. A lot of times it is because of a politician's personal goals, or because the soldier needed money to pay for his family or an education. I dont respect soldiers less for that, I respect them a lot for taking such a tough job. However, that is not an excuse for unjust behavior if/when it happens.

Yella , your wrong , not about politico's , here in the UK there is no conscription , all volunteers , people who actively want involvement for exactly the right to keep the world free, I know for a fact having served in the brit forces , its not gungho as you seem to think ,blind obedience at the drop of a hat , every situation is e valued and courses of action decided on with collective thought .Maybe the Yanks do it differently or indeed the Israeli's , sure basic training was a shock ,it was to bring you to recognise what military life is about , thing is people listen to their friends romanticism and horror stories , before a person makes judgement I suggest they go serve , and bud , you will hear that rhetoric again ref freedom , your/mine/us/etc ,time n time again , you have the freedom to travel just about anywhere in the world ,who bought you that ??? Russians still cant without a million check ups and paper work ;)

[The Black Ghost]

Yella , your wrong , not about politico's , here in the UK there is no conscription , all volunteers , people who actively want involvement for exactly the right to keep the world free, I know for a fact having served in the brit forces , its not gungho as you seem to think ,blind obedience at the drop of a hat , every situation is e valued and courses of action decided on with collective thought .Maybe the Yanks do it differently or indeed the Israeli's , sure basic training was a shock ,it was to bring you to recognise what military life is about , thing is people listen to their friends romanticism and horror stories , before a person makes judgement I suggest they go serve , and bud , you will hear that rhetoric again ref freedom , your/mine/us/etc ,time n time again , you have the freedom to travel just about anywhere in the world ,who bought you that ??? Russians still cant without a million check ups and paper work ;)

Its funny. I imagine if you asked a Soviet soldier they would have said they were fighting for your freedoms too and their country was the best and "no, we're totally not mindless drones!" I can't speak for the Brits and their military, but I imagine if you were sent to Iraq and decided to "object" they wouldnt just hand you a cup of tea and let you go home. HOWEVER, I know one thing that is better about the US and Britain than in Israel. In both of our countries, we choose to join the military. In Israel, they choose you! (I would make another Russia joke but I already did that) ;)

I know that when looking in the hard numbers it looks like Israel is the wrong doer. Tell me would you feel any better with US helping Israel if Hamas had state of the art weapons and able to inflict more damage? It's about the difference in tools, everything else (but the death toll) would be the same.

Don't make the mistake to think that just because I do not support Israel's actions that somehow I support the actions of all of Israel's enemies. Terrorism is terrorism and must be rooted out wherever it is found without making the civilians suffer (therefore creating more terrorists and militants)

Yet they have 40+% unemployment and need foreign help. I was showing you that independence is not problem solver.

They are that high because of the decade+ long blockade to Serbia that we willingly supported and from the 5 years long blockade from Greece.
Add the 1999 refugees from Kosovo that we willingly accepted to help them (500 000 to 2 000 000 population) and now the strikes in Greece that deny us the sea port in Thessaloniki.
Well, these are official numbers, now help us ;)

I increasingly find it hard to tell if you are making fun of your own people's problems or if you actually think you should get foreign help.

I am not opposed to helping Macedonia or any other country, but that is a seperate topic, is it not?

BTW, in the US, many would just say those 40% are unemployed because you are lazy and too dependent on the government. I'm only saying that because I want you to understand what the majority of board members here beleive. ...Maybe its true? Can you offer any insight for a sociologist?

Why they have so many kids if they can't support them?

Keep in mind, a high rate of childbirth is a sign of impoverishment. Women have more children to have more people to help bring in money to the family. Statistically, that's just the way economics works.

So we can just close both eyes on the same problems elsewhere? I am showing you that the Pals are not the only ones who have these problems and they are not genuine because of Israel, but of leaders stupidity. My country included.

Israel, leaders of Israel...what difference does it make? The state perpetrates, the leader directs. The leader is elected by the people. Hamas has done a lot of bad things too, although they have progressed a lot towards fighting terrorist groups and being a more legitimate government. Remains to be seen the end result but Israel needs to stop punishing the everyday people who are only being more radicalized by their actions.

Tell me, ever been in Israel or occupied Palestinian territories?

Ever been to Jordan, Egypt or Syria?

No. Have you?

Is the point you are trying to make that we cannot possibly make any conclusion without going there? First of all, that is not feasible for everyone to have to travel to make an opinion. Secondly, we do have strong news agencies and independent commissions to rely on, as welll as Youtube (cant get much closer to being there than that)

[The Black Ghost]

Stop the friggin presses! Links to Israeli atrocities committed...all over the net!
Never seen those before.

I could:

A) Accept it as the truth since it IS posted on the net.

B) Defend it word by word and bring up Palestinian atrocities against the Jew in sort of like a tit-for-tat kind of post.

C) Post cherry picked links amongst the thousands and thousand of articles on the net, both defending and attacking both sides.

D) Just glance at it to confirm my suspicions that it's the same shit opinion pieces that I've read thousands of and then laugh and ask you to actually use your own words to describe one or two atrocities so we can have an honest to god debate about the issue.

You can start by accepting the truth. The facts are there, you cannot deny them. Palestinians have done some bad things too--and they will also be held accountable--but as a sociologist, I know it is the nature of the weak to use asymetrical and sometimes terrorist methods when they have no power to directly fight the strong. Doesnt make it right, but maybe that helps explain for you why there are so many militants in Palestine. Same can be said of any occupied country for the most part.

So....ummm.....Ghost...without linking anything this time, list some atrocities and let's talk about it the honest way.

First you tell me to give you sources and support to back up my claims. Now you tell me to use my own subjective words. Oh my.

How about we do both, a thesis with a good source. I'll just choose a nice juicy one to throw out there.

Israel is illegally evicting people and annexing Palestinian land while continuing to expand settlement growth.

Well, let me post an article too, if you don't mind.

Zahar: Jews will soon be expelled from Pal... JPost - Middle East

I'm just going to repost what you blatantly ignored.

-Recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation with specific stipulations for each side such as not letting Palestine expel Jews

How? Can the UN guarantee there won't be rocket attacks from Palestine into Israel? And if there are, what is the UN going to do while Jews live in fear and some die? Israel is going to need that reassurance from the UN before they make this deal.

If there are rocket attacks, we stop them. If there are Israeli attacks, we stop them. Seems pretty damn simple to me. I expect a few vigilantes from either side will try some things for a while, but over time it will settle down.

Also...why would the militants continue to fire rockets after they just got what they wanted? Beats me.

Why? What's fair to you? Israel has over 7 million people and Palestine has little more than half that. Israel have excellent water treatment capabilities. Palestine does not. In the Mountain Aquifer, for instance, about 25% of the wastewater is produced by Israel and 75% by Palesine. So what's the correct ratio to you?

Oh, sure, until they all get killed or are pressured to leave.

Well...can't be any worse than it is now.

And if they decide to one day say, "Nah...we'll stop here in our fabulous march towards equality and democracy"?

The track record in the Middle East is not good, buddy.

Progress takes time and it takes leading by example. Currently, Israel is the main "democracy" in the middle east and they have so far set a horrible example. Why would anyone want a democracy like that?--think the Arabs. But the Arab Spring shows that people want more representation and freedoms, and I expect that trend to continue.

Future problems such as?
What if Iran gets involved? Syria?

That's an issue for the UNSC, but I dont think they would get involved after the situation has been resolved. Syria probably wants the Golan Heights back, but that is a seperate issue.

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. The devil is in the details. It might feel good to jot down koombaya like points and call it a solution but many, MANY people smarter than you or I ever will be has tried and it's always in the details where things get snagged. Sure, your solutions might sound good on paper but what's the Israeli's incentive to go along with those? What if they don't? Do we use force to make them?

We use force defensively in protection of Palestine and to make sure the Palestinians hold up their end of the deal. But if Israel invades Palestine after that, we should go to war. I expect that war wouldnt last long because without US support Israel is am empty husk with no friends and many enemies. It would be suicide for them. But International Law will have been asserted for the first time and next time anyone tries to break it, they'll think twice. This is the reason the UN was set up, I think its time that it was properly enforced.

[bigross86]

Its funny. I imagine if you asked a Soviet soldier they would have said they were fighting for your freedoms too and their country was the best and "no, we're totally not mindless drones!" I can't speak for the Brits and their military, but I imagine if you were sent to Iraq and decided to "object" they wouldnt just hand you a cup of tea and let you go home. HOWEVER, I know one thing that is better about the US and Britain than in Israel. In both of our countries, we choose to join the military. In Israel, they choose you! (I would make another Russia joke but I already did that) ;)

I don't know if you're aware of exactly how the IDF works: Every candidate received a list of options based on their medical profile. In most units you need to volunteer to be in combat. If you don't want to be in a combat unit there are many ways to get out of it, and you will, because any self respecting combat unit doesn't want people that don't have the motivation to be there in the foxhole/tank next to you.

One of the best commanders I had in my service was someone that was so incredibly left wing it wasn't even funny, but he volunteered for Tank Commander school anyway. Why? Because he knew, as we all knew, that without a strong IDF, Israel is all but doomed.

I find it interesting that you have a problem with the draft in the IDF, a country surrounded by enemies, when in WWII the draft recruited far more people than the IDF has ever drafted at once for a war halfway across the world. You might disagree with Korea and Vietnam, (which is a different question), but unless you are willing to question the necessity of US involvement in WWII, that's a bit of a double standard right there.

Don't make the mistake to think that just because I do not support Israel's actions that somehow I support the actions of all of Israel's enemies. Terrorism is terrorism and must be rooted out wherever it is found without making the civilians suffer (therefore creating more terrorists and militants)

And you say this despite experts in the field claiming that no other army in the history of warfare has gone to the lengths the IDF has gone to ensure safety of non-combatants, even when it leads to increased danger to IDF soldiers in the field?

BTW, in the US, many would just say those 40% are unemployed because you are lazy and too dependent on the government. I'm only saying that because I want you to understand what the majority of board members here beleive. ...Maybe its true? Can you offer any insight for a sociologist?

Completely off topic, but yes, I believe many people are willingly unemployed. You can read more of my thoughts on the matter in the Occupy Wall Street thread.

Keep in mind, a high rate of childbirth is a sign of impoverishment. Women have more children to have more people to help bring in money to the family. Statistically, that's just the way economics works.

Or like they readily admit, they are grooming more terrorists and suicide bombers, it all depends on how you look at it, I guess...

Israel, leaders of Israel...what difference does it make? The state perpetrates, the leader directs. The leader is elected by the people. Hamas has done a lot of bad things too, although they have progressed a lot towards fighting terrorist groups and being a more legitimate government. Remains to be seen the end result but Israel needs to stop punishing the everyday people who are only being more radicalized by their actions.

Did you seriously claim that the entity that endorses and commits state-sponsored terrorism within its own borders and without, indiscriminately fires rockets into civilian territories, kidnaps soldiers and then ignores every single protocol of the Geneva Convention including Red Cross visits and admits it will continue to keep doing so, readily shoots people in its own borders for singing at weddings and other frivolities and is and has admittedly been raising children to commit acts of terror from a very young age is a legitimate government?

No. Have you?

I have. Still do, as a matter of fact...

Is the point you are trying to make that we cannot possibly make any conclusion without going there? First of all, that is not feasible for everyone to have to travel to make an opinion. Secondly, we do have strong news agencies and independent commissions to rely on, as welll as Youtube (cant get much closer to being there than that)

What about those independent commissions that find Israel in the clear, like the Palmer Report? Do you support those as well?

What about news agencies that release pro-Israel reports that stand in direct opposition to your frame of view? Do you support and accept those, or do you claim they are biased and don't really portray the situation?

And no, you can not rely on Youtube, as much as you'd like to. Take this from someone studying mass communications and their various effects. Youtube is highly unreliable since it leaves things open to interpretation in a way that experiencing and seeing things with your own two eyes can't.

[USSWisconsin]

This is certainly a divisive subject. It seems like we will always have Israel supporters and Israel critics. IMO, WAB is generally rather pro-Israel in its core membership (at least few of the core members openly criticize Israel). If you want to stir things up, starting a thread like this will do it. Both sides of the discussion can produce ample documentation to support their views, there is no doubt - we have seen it here before. I enjoy discussing some things again and again - like history or battleships - but I don't see those subjects as being as emotionally charged as this one. Having lots of friends in Israel tends to make a person supportive of Israel, listening to some news services or political viewpoints can lead to the opposite stance.

I'm wonder where this is going - will it result in hurt feelings? or worse in bans or suspensions (dubi3?)?:scared:

[bigross86]

If there are rocket attacks, we stop them. If there are Israeli attacks, we stop them. Seems pretty damn simple to me. I expect a few vigilantes from either side will try some things for a while, but over time it will settle down.

Also...why would the militants continue to fire rockets after they just got what they wanted? Beats me.

How do you plan on stopping the rocket attacks?

And why would the militants continue to commit acts of terror after being offered over 90% of their demands repeatedly by different Prime Ministers?

Progress takes time and it takes leading by example. Currently, Israel is the main "democracy" in the middle east and they have so far set a horrible example. Why would anyone want a democracy like that?--think the Arabs. But the Arab Spring shows that people want more representation and freedoms, and I expect that trend to continue.

I've already addressed Israeli Arab freedoms, not gonna repeat it.

That's an issue for the UNSC, but I dont think they would get involved after the situation has been resolved. Syria probably wants the Golan Heights back, but that is a seperate issue.

Do you think the Golan Heights should be given back?

We use force defensively in protection of Palestine and to make sure the Palestinians hold up their end of the deal. But if Israel invades Palestine after that, we should go to war. I expect that war wouldnt last long because without US support Israel is am empty husk with no friends and many enemies. It would be suicide for them. But International Law will have been asserted for the first time and next time anyone tries to break it, they'll think twice. This is the reason the UN was set up, I think its time that it was properly enforced.

Wow, so many mistakes in one paragraph. Let's start:

1) Again, how do you ensure the Palestinians hold up their end of the deal?

2) Israel has no reason to invade Palestine for the hell of it. Israel's attacks are in response and retaliation to Palestinian actions. We're not as war-mongering as you'd like to think we are

3) First time international law will have been asserted? With the 20th century being the century with just about the most armed conflicts in the history of armed conflicts? Jeez, why is the UN still around then?

Which brings us to number 4:

4) The UN was NOT set up to enforce international law. The United Nations was established to replace the flawed League of Nations in 1945 and in order to maintain international peace and promote cooperation in solving international economic, social and humanitarian problems. At its core, the UN, like the League of Nations before it, was meant to be a place where warring and conflicting parties could discuss things in neutral territory and neutral surroundings and hopefully prevent and avert existing and further conflicts. In certain cases the UN has the power to authorize economic, diplomatic, and military sanctions in order to prevent conflict or to bring it to an end.

UN forces were brought into play as early as 1948 in order to protect the Armistice between Israel and the Arab Nations following the Israeli War of Independence. Korea was one of the UN's greatest challenges when deciding what measure of reaction to have to the North Korean invasion of South Korea.

None of the above changes the fact that the UN was NOT founded in order to enforce international law. Yes, one of its bodies is the ICoJ, but again, that is not the UN's raison d'être

[Double Edge]

The increasing number of Jewish settlements, continued eviction of Palestinians, the worsening economic conditions of Palestinians, the blockades of Gaza. and the treatment of the occupied West Bank as a colony shows the government is not interested in peace.

Do you think the Pals are any more interested in peace ?

I think neither are, and the status quo suits both and that is something the international community is just going to have to accept. Until these two are serious there is nothing anybody can do. But to keep the funds coming in they both have to make the right noises from time to time.

Another question i have for you is who do you think the passage of time serves better ? Pals, Israelis, both or neither.

[bigross86]

Even though I've asked you to read some of the Israeli-Palestinian threads, it seems like you haven't since you're rehashing many of the arguments from those threads. This is a repost of mine from the thread regarding the Palestinian UN statehood bid, one which will explain that even for all your wants, wishes and hopes, you are doing nothing but trying to churn water into butter:

Like I said, nothing will change. Absolutely nothing. What's gonna happen? Hamas and Fatah tried to join forces and that disintegrated almost immediately. Until one side or the other gives up, or alternatively wins, there is nothing that can or will be done. Let's not forget that the bastion of Palestinian Democracy, Mahmoud Abbas, head of the PA and the PLO, has overstayed his welcome and has not held elections even though they are years overdue.

Let's continue: Geographically, there's nothing that can be done. There is literally no way of connecting Gaza and the West Bank without slicing Israel down the middle. Israel will not accept that for a couple reasons, which include the fact that Israel doesn't want to be cut in half, and the amazing security risk implicit in such a border. Even if you somehow managed to work out a land swap vis-a-vis the West Bank and actually managed to find a way to make two separate and consecutive blocs of land, one for the Israelis and one for the Palestinians, there's still no way to connect it with Gaza!

Military: Say Palestine does become a state, and say they actually are allowed to arm themselves legally. Does anybody actually see Palestine as a country that will throw a proper war? A renegade Arab in Jerusalem with a bulldozer caused massive damage and plenty of injuries and deaths, can you imagine a "rogue" Palestinian tank crew running amok in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or even one of the Israeli settlements in the Israeli bloc of land in the West Bank from the previous paragraph?

Economy: Since Arafat there has been massive corruption in the PA and the PLO, and it hasn't stopped. A quick look at the numbers shows how many billions are going in to the PA's coffers and how many are being dished out. Where's the rest of it going?! Ask Suha Arafat, maybe she'll be able to tell you. How's your French? The instances of Hamas looting and stealing UN goods, foodstuffs and medicine aid are almost beyond counting. Only a few months ago Abbas declared that in order for a Palestinian state to stand on its own two feet it would need the assistance of billions of dollars from the USA and the EU. Why?!

Fact of the matter is, I'm surprised no one has put a bullet into Abbas yet. The status quo at the moment may be unpleasant, but it's a far sight more than what the Palestinians will end up having if they decide they want a state. If you can come up with reasons that counter my points, go ahead. The way I see it, both sides are getting too much out of the situation now. Any change will either hurt one side or the other or both

[Double Edge]

And when your opponent does not recognize your right to exist, that puts you at a disadvantage.

This line gets repeated so many times and i wonder why that is.

Of course the Pals aren't going to recognise Israel, to do so means foreclosing on what can be negotiated before the negotiations even begin.

Bibi said this, that was his one line answer how to solve the problem. He's right, because if the Pals recognise Israel then that is the end of the conflict right there, the rest will just be formalities.

Islamic states are recognized as Islamic. Why shouldn't Israel be recognized as a Jewish state?

Had posted this in another thread but cannot recall the answer, its got something to do with the Israeli Arabs.

[Parihaka]

Had posted this in another thread but cannot recall the answer, its got something to do with the Israeli Arabs.

I think you mean Muslim Arabs. The surrounding Muslim states had no problem evicting and outlawing the Jewish Arabs post WWII and no country has raised ongoing objection to that.