After the Euro crash and some News

[dave lukins]

I take it you are on the European side of Georgia. Do tell us why you are kicking sand castles over and a little more on Mikho. Then go to the Intro thread and kindly introduce yourself to the rest of our Members. :)

[Doktor]

Dave you can't be serious rofl

[tankie]

I have submitted my answer.

Me too , but im not expecting to win :whome:

[snapper]

The end of democracy?

Yesterday Greece had a new Prime Minister 'appointed'; Lucas Papademos. He's a banker (surprise surprise!); head of Greece's central bank from 1994 to 2002 and Vice President to Jean-Claude Trichet at the European Central Bank from 2002 to 2010. So much for referendums and democracy.

It seems a similar arrangement is likely to be implemented soon in Italy where a Mr Mario Monti ('super Mario' to his pals) is likey to take over from Berlusconi; "Mr Monti was made a life senator on Wednesday by Giorgio Napolitano, Italy's president, meaning that he will be able to vote in the Senate today for the first time." He served as a member of the European Commission between 1994 and 2004 and is the president of Bruegel, a European think tank he established in 2005.

The current phrase being used for this form of Government is a 'technocratic' Government. Seems pretty clear that both are firmly pro Euro; one a former ECB VP and the other a member of the Commission so perhaps they could also be described as 'Eurocrats'.

One thing is absolutely clear: Neither was elected!

What then is this new form of Eurocratic Government likely to be like? Well presumably the sole purpose of these new apponted men will be to make the cuts that their countries need to stay in the Euro so they will be Prime Ministers AND Finance Ministers. They may as not pay another salary to any finance minister as this is their sole raison d'etre. What about other Departments? It seems pretty clear that they have NO mandate for a new foreign policy for example, or housing, or energy, or transport, or military... Lets just take foreign policy: Suppose NATO committed a Syria no fly zone or a strike on Iran? Where would Greece and Italy stand? Well their Prime Ministers have no mandate to agree to disagree, to support or not to support any such action. Effectively their decision would dictated by the Commission and Baroness Ashton (the EU 'High Representative' who "in conjunction with the President of the European Council, speaks on behalf of the EU in agreed foreign policy matters and can have the task of articulating ambiguous policy positions created by disagreements among member states." (Wikipedea)). May as also sack the Foreign Affairs Minsters too then!

Given that these Gentlemen are NOT elected one obvious question is how can they be removed? Presumably NOT by election! They do not have a constituency nor do they sit in Parliament (although Monti is the equivalent of a Lord now). How can address their equivalent of the House of Commons? They can't! Would a vote of 'no confidence' therefore result in their removal? Presumably not since their authority derives not from the elected representatives of the people. How then can they be removed? I suppose in theory their authority derives from the Presidents of the Republics and they could remove them but it is quite clear that their authority is derived from the EU. I am tempted to ask if General Elections will now be cancelled and a 'state of emergency' imposed to prolong these fundama entaly dangerous Eurocracies but this may well be the future.

There is a name for this form of Government and it is NOT 'technocratic'. It is Imperialistic/'Viceroy' in its old form, 'Quisling' when applied to pro Nazi Goverments and Soviet/Commiterm when applied to the USSR. Undoubtedly each system claimed it was doing the best thing for the countries involved and the same claim is made now. Make no mistake though, democracy it is NOT. 71+ million people in Greece and Italy have effectively fallen to a new form of dictatorship within a week.

The question then becomes: Will the Eurocracies succeed where the democracies failed? I shall answer that later.

[Doktor]

Snapper,

IIRC there were no direct elections for Papandreou to be a PM. People usually vote for MPs, then those MPs vote the PM.

You wanna say there was no vote in the Greek parliament for the new PM?

[snapper]

He's NOT an MP!

[Doktor]

It has to be?

[snapper]

I cannot recall a Prime Minister of Britain who did not sit in Parliament, Lords or Commons. The last Lord was Lord Douglas Home in 1963.

[Doktor]

That would be less then 10 PM's in a row ;)

With the setting of the new Greek PM I don't see any breech in the procedures.

I got the feeling you have objections on that, that's my rant about.

[snapper]

There is even a name for the real rulers:

"It has been dubbed Europe's Politburo: a "self-appointed body of powerful individuals prepared to topple national governments if they fail to toe the line."

The so-called Groupe de Francfort came together last month at a party for the retiring chief of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet.

They met four times at the margins of the G20 summit - and marked themselves out by sporting GdF lapel badges. But who are the "Groupe de Francfort"?


Angela Merkel
57, Germany
Position: German Chancellor since November 2005, re-elected in 2009 for another four years.
Democratically elected? Yes.
Qualifications: Elected to Bundestag in 1990, minister twice. President of the European Council and lead the G8 in 2007. Now the de facto leader of the EU.

Quote: It is time for a breakthrough to a new Europe. A community that says, 'Regardless of what happens in the rest of the world, it can never again change its ground rules’, that simply can’t survive. I’m convinced of this. Because the world is changing so much, we must be prepared to answer the challenges. That will mean more Europe, not less Europe.

Friends say: Europe's Iron Lady
Foes say: "La Boche" (Nicolas Sarkozy)

Nicolas Sarkozy
56, France
Position: President of the French Republic since May 2007, serving a five-year term
Democratically elected? Yes
Qualifications: Mayor of Neuilly-sur-Seine, Minister of Budget, Minister of Finance and Interior Minister. EU president during the 2008 financial crisis, pushing for G20 summits and financial regulation in the eurozone. Sent the first fighter jets to back Libyan rebels.

Quote: The consequences of a failure of the euro would be so cataclysmic that we could not possibly entertain the idea. We couldn't even play with the idea of entertaining the idea... Mrs. Merkel and I will never, never allow the euro to fail. Never will we allow the euro to be destroyed... The euro is Europe. Germany and France have known three barbaric wars. Now Europe is the most stable continent in the world.

Friends say: "The best man in the world" - Sameh Mahmoud, Libyan rebel fighter.
Foes say: "The King of bling bling" - the French press, for his love of exotic holidays and Rolex watches.

Christine Lagarde
55, France.
Position: Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund since July, for a five year term. Replaced Dominic Strauss Strauss-Kahn following rape allegations, of which he was later cleared.
Democratically elected? No.
Qualifications: Lawyer, chair of international law firm Baker and McKenzie, French Minister of Economic Affairs.

Quote: If we do not act, and act together, we could enter a downward spiral of uncertainty, financial instability, and a collapse in global demand. Ultimately, we could face a lost decade of low growth and high unemployment.

Friends say: "Is this the world's sexiest woman?" (The Guardian newspaper.)
Foes say: "Farcical" (Oxfam, because of lack of transparency in her IMF selection.)

Mario Draghi
64, Italy
Position: President of the European Central Bank since November, for an eight-year term
Democratically elected? No.
Qualifications: Economist with a PhD from MIT; lead the privatisation drive from the Italian Treasury and pushed the country into the euro. A vice president of Goldman Sachs, before being named head of Italy's central bank after the incumbant resigned in a corruption scandal.

Quote: It would be pointless to think that sovereign bond rates can stably be brought down for a protracted period by outside intervention. The first and foremost responsibility lies with national economic policies. Put your public finances in order.

Friends say: "Super Mario" (The Italian press)
Foes say: "Mama Mia! For Italians, inflation is a way of life, like tomato sauce with spaghetti." (Germany's Bild tabloid, on the idea of Draghi running the ECB.)


José Manuel Barroso
55, Portugal
Position: President of the European Commission since 2004, re-appointed for five years in 2009
Democratically elected? No
Qualifications: Portuguese MP since 1985, Foreign Minister, Prime Minister in 2002-04. Holds 21 honourary degrees.

Quote: All the European Union members should have the euro as their currency. The idea that we have two unions in Europe means disunion... It was an illusion to think that we could have a common currency and single market with national approaches to economic and budgetary policy.

Friends say: "Lots of ability, but no strong convictions on anything, and he's driven not by money, but by power." (Ana Gomes, Portuguese MEP.)
Foes say: "An unelected bureaucrat who is overseeing a system that is falling apart." (Douglas Carswell, Tory backbencher).

Herman Van Rompuy
64, Belgium
Position: President of the European Council since 2009, serving a 30-month term.
Democratically elected? No.
Qualifications: Belgian Senator, 1988-95, Representative 1995-2009. Prime Minister, 2008-09. Keen blogger and haiku writer. Opposed Turkish entry into the EU.

Quote: We have together to fight the danger of a new Euroscepticism... In every member state, there are people who believe their country can survive alone in the globalised world. It is more than an illusion: it is a lie... The biggest enemy of Europe today is fear. Fear leads to egoism, egoism leads to nationalism, and nationalism leads to war.

Friends say: "Furiously intelligent" (An EU diplomat)
Foes say: "An overpaid catastrophe" (Nigel Farage, Ukip leader.)


Olli Rehn
49, Finland
Position: European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs since 2010, serving a five year term.
Democratically elected? No
Qualifications: DPhil, Oxford; European Commissioner for Enlargement 2004-10; economic adviser to the Finnish PM 2003-04.

Quote: Let me be very blunt on this: It's either the EU institutions, according to our own rules, procedures and democratic accountability, or the market forces that will do the job. For me, as a committed European and a committed democrat, the choices are clear.

Friends say: "Purposeful. Serious. Not at all a typical glad-handling politician" (An EC official)
Foes say: "Low profile" (The Economist)


Jean-Claude Juncker
56, Luxembourg
Position: Chairman of the European Finance Ministers since 2005, reappointed four times
Democratically elected: Yes, as PM of Luxembourg
Qualifications: Prime Minister of Luxembourg since 1995. Minister of Finance 1989-2009. Owns a pinball machine.

Quote: Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret, in the Eurogroup. I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious... I am for secret, dark debates.

Friends say: "Highly regarded... he is a deep-dyed fanatical federalist" (The Economist)
Foes say: "Master of lies" (Austria's Der Standard)"

Eurozone crisis: who is pulling the strings in Europe? - Telegraph

[snapper]

That would be less then 10 PM's in a row ;)

With the setting of the new Greek PM I don't see any breech in the procedures.

I got the feeling you have objections on that, that's my rant about.

How do you unelect a non elected Prime Minister? Riddle me this...

[Doktor]

With a vote in the parliament. Same as usual.

This PM is "elected" as Papandreou was ;)

[snapper]

I cannot see how a person who is unelected by the public - is NOT an MP - can derive authority from a Parliament of MPs. It's a if the UK House of Commons voted for say Mitt Romney as Prime Minister - presuming ANYONE is elegible. In your Constitutional Theory they may as well have elected Barruso himself - or the Grand Patriarch of Bananaland. I suppose in theory ANYONE can command a majority within a Parliament. Normaly though we elect our MPs because they belong to a Party and the leader of that Party is candidate for Prime Minister. They therefore have a 'mandate'. If a similar procedure were to happen in the UK and the HoC suddenly go stark raving mad and elect 'John Smith of Nowhereinparticular' I think the Queen would constitutionaly be forced to call elections.

The very simple fact is that these MPs who have been more or less forced into this have NO MANDATE for their actions, nor do the new Governments have any public legimitacy.

I stupidly voted for Laura because she stood for the Party I belong to. I expected her to support David Cameron as Prime Minister and they said in advance (some of) what they would do. By and large my MP has done her job (sometimes too well for my liking!). If she suddenly went beserk and decided to elect 'John Smith of Nowhereinparticular' she would face a byelection within weeks as we'd deselect her. You elect your MPs because you have some idea of what they will support in Parliament - they have a mandate to this from you. Not so any longer in Greece and Italy. The link to democracy is lost when you defer from your mandate.

You say they can be ousted by a vote in Parliament? Who calls an election? The Prime Minister!

I predict 'Long Parliaments' for both these effective Dictatorships.

[snapper]

"Far-right politicians were given posts in Greece's new unity government on Friday, a first since democracy was restored in 1974 after the fall of an army dictatorship, an official statement said."

Makis Voridis, 47, the former leader of the Hellenic Front, was named infrastructure minister and will be joined by another three fellow members of the Popular Orthodox Rally (also known as the Laos party) who were given junior ministerial positions in the new cabinet formed under interim prime minister Lucas Papademos to save the country from bankruptcy.

[BD1]

does UK have a head of state that is elected on free, democratic elections, or even by members of parliament?

see, the way it looks like is that UK is quite far from any democracy as such, especially when one looks at british election system - you cannot claim that this is clear and well-understandable system

Presently, six electoral systems are used: the single member plurality system (First Past the Post), the multi member plurality system, party list PR, the single transferable vote, the Additional Member System and the Supplementary Vote.

people, rocks, glass houses, etc . etc.