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Deceptive progress with new proposals

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  • Deceptive progress with new proposals

    Some deceptive noises are coming out of the "Quartet" and their stenographers in the Israeli print media.

    The foreign ministers of the Middle East Quartet...are expected to release a statement endorsing U.S. President Barack Obama's May 19 speech on the Middle East, which called for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the borders of a future state based on pre-1967 lines with agreed-upon land swaps.
    Deceptive because this isn't a new position, even for the US. This is the position of pretty much the entire world. And whilst the US opposes a two-state settlement based on the '67 borders at every opportunity, its publicly stated policy has long been precisely that.

    And notice how he replaces "minor and mutual land swaps" with "land swaps". Meaning Israel can grab whatever land it wants.

    The other extreme precondition is that the Palestinians recognise Israel not as a democratic state of its citizens, not as the state of Israel, but as an ethnically discriminatory "Jewish" state. This is a euphemism in Israeli propaganda circles for demanding that the Palestinian refugees give up their right to return to their homes.

    The other oddity is this "ratification" of settlement blocs. As if somehow a US president had the power to overturn Palestinian rights and international law and give Palestinian land to Israel unilaterally.

    If Israel wants to keep parts of Palestine, it will need to negotiate in good faith for that land. Providing Israel is reasonable, the Palestinians will likely say "yes", but they need to have the right to say "no".

    Article source

    The foreign ministers of the Middle East Quartet will be meeting Monday in Washington and are expected to release a statement endorsing U.S. President Barack Obama's May 19 speech on the Middle East, which called for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the borders of a future state based on pre-1967 lines with agreed-upon land swaps.

    According to sources in Jerusalem, the Quartet, which consists of the United States, the United Nations, the European Union and Russia, will not invite the parties to a summit meeting but will instead send a delegation to the region to determine if the will exists and the time is ripe for renewed negotiations.

    On Sunday the group of eight senior Israeli cabinet members convened to discuss the anticipated announcement by the Quartet following a similar meeting on Friday. A source in Jerusalem said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his cabinet colleagues have concerns that the Quartet announcement could provide a surprise for Israel similar to Obama's May speech, the contents of which were revised less than 24 hours before it was delivered.

    Monday's meeting of Quartet foreign ministers and the UN secretary general comes after the European Union exerted intense pressure for the presentation of an international peace plan on the conflict. The EU's foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, has argued such a peace proposal would constitute an alternative to the Palestinian push for recognition of an independent Palestinian state at the UN in September, and that it might convince the Palestinians to refrain from going forward with their plans.

    In the past two weeks, France has put heavy pressure on Ashton and the other Quartet members for the group's statement to include an invitation to Israel and the Palestinians to resume negotiations based on Obama's remarks on the 1967 borders and on recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.

    The U.S. is proposing a Quartet statement that mentions the Obama address in relatively general terms and announces that a Quartet delegation would visit the region for additional talks.

    Israeli sources have said Netanyahu has been somewhat more flexible in his stance regarding the principles expressed in Obama's address, saying that he would agree to base talks on the 1967 borders with land swaps. In exchange, he is seeking Obama administration ratification of President George W. Bush's letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon regarding Jewish West Bank settlement blocs coming under Israeli sovereignty and for Palestinian refugees to be resettled in a future Palestinian state.

  • #2
    Hey!!! Dubi's back!!! We missed you over in the (what was meant to be the) Flotilla thread...
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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    • #3
      Hell, this is going to disprove number 5 in my "17 Reasons Why I love WAB" thread...
      :red:

      Comment


      • #4
        Be thankful your wacky predictions lasted this long...

        Although, Dubi hasn't responded yet, you never know
        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

        Comment


        • #5
          Haven't we been here?

          Starting point aint the same as finished talks. While those borders can be a start, the finished map will look totally different, more or less:whome:

          P.S. Welcome back Dubi.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
            Hey!!! Dubi's back!!! We missed you over in the (what was meant to be the) Flotilla thread...
            Thanks..."Biggie"... :) It's nice to be missed. Even politics has to take a back seat for a family vacation. :)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              Starting point aint the same as finished talks. While those borders can be a start, the finished map will look totally different, more or less :whome:
              Yes, that sounds about right. Formal recognition of the Palestinian state simply compels Israel to negotiate in good faith, and to engage in minor and mutual land swaps for borders. So yes, the 67 lines will be the start of the process, not the end. If the Palestinians have any sense they will agree to engage in swaps for the settlement blocs close to the green line in return for a land corridor to Gaza.

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              • #8
                Dubi, but they have to formally recognize Israel and her right for existence. With Hamas in the Palestinian government I can't see that happening.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  Dubi, but they have to formally recognize Israel and her right for existence. With Hamas in the Palestinian government I can't see that happening.
                  The Palestinians have long since recognised Israel in a de facto manner, which is all they are required to do under international law.

                  Recognition of "Israel's right to exist" is a fabrication that doesn't really exist outside of the Israel-Palestine conflict. No state on Earth has a "right to exist". Israel is alone in the world in demanding recognition of this right, and they demand it only from the Palestinians. The only people on Earth who believe Israel has an a priori right to exist are, by definition, Zionists. So this bizarre Israeli precondition is effectively demanding that Hamas become Zionists, which I'm fairly certain wouldn't happen any time soon :)

                  The reason that Israeli propagandists place so much emphasis on the fictitious "right to exist" of the state, is that it redirects attention from the rights of the people, which are very real. So the Israeli people have a right to self determination, and the right to a state, but the right belongs to them, not to the state itself. The problem with focusing on the rights of the people, is that it very quickly becomes clear that the majority of Israeli people already have this right, and the Israeli people are systematically denying this right to the Palestinians, hence the shift to the mythical right of the state.

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                  • #10
                    Why bother when I can let Wikipedia talk for me? Wikipedia - Right to Exist

                    Respond to every single claim on that page, and then maybe we'll discuss your fictitious claim that "Recognition of "Israel's right to exist" is a fabrication that doesn't really exist outside of the Israel-Palestine conflict" and that "No state on Earth has a "right to exist"".
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ben stop quoting Wiki and use UN ;)

                      UNSC Resolution 242 is a good start. While is says "right to live in peace" rather then right to exist, it's virtually the same ;)
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think Wikipedia is one mankind's greatest inventions...
                        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                          Why bother when I can let Wikipedia talk for me?
                          That's going to be the abstract of my next paper :)

                          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                          Respond to every single claim on that page, and then maybe we'll discuss your fictitious claim that "Recognition of "Israel's right to exist" is a fabrication that doesn't really exist outside of the Israel-Palestine conflict" and that "No state on Earth has a "right to exist"".
                          First of all, notice that I said that a "state" doesn't have a right to exist, I didn't say "nation". The two terms are often (and incorrectly) used interchangeably.

                          Secondly, the Wiki article you...erm...cite also explains why I'm right.

                          It is not a right recognized in international law.
                          So whilst pro-state political philosophers can talk about a state's right to exist, and whilst grad students can discuss it in political science seminars, down here in the real world, the relationships between states are governed by international law. And as international law does not recognise this mythical right, it is a nonsense demand used to prevent a peaceful settlement. I suspect there would be significantly more sympathy for this extreme demand if Israel recognised Palestine's "right to exist", which, clearly, it does not.

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                          • #14
                            Dubi, what about the state's right to live in peace? It's in UNSC resolution.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              Dubi, what about the state's right to live in peace? It's in UNSC resolution.
                              The term "live in peace" is almost anthropomorphic, but the right to live in peace is very different to the right to exist. For example, I'm sure you could name countless states that no longer exist. If existence is their right, are we not obligated to "bring them back from the dead"?

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