indian army vs american army

[lemontree]

"Dinosaurs versus geeks, Captain. Dinosaurs vs geeks. Us dinosaurs still remember how we roamed the earth. We just can't get over our extinction is caused by geeks."

I get your point but... dinosaurs and people really never conflicted. mother nature got rid of dinosaurs.

My friend the Colonel mean't old soldiering of using maps/compass and not GPS, plooding on foot and not humvees or choppers.

[Officer of Engineers]

We too need it now due to shortage of officers.

Captain, North America do not have the "cultural" bias between officers and NCMs that I noticed in non-North American armies (actually just Canada and the US). Namely because we do not have a history of the "Gentlemen" class raising regiments using their own intial seed money. In alot of cases early in our military history, the "officer" was just the guy who can read a map.

Thus, I do have a culture shock of sorts whenever people mention they have an officer shortage problem.

Thus, could you explain further why officer recruiting is down?

Our soldier recruitment education level also is high school, but the quality is lacking.

Could you elaborate further? If your standards are the same as ours, then you should be expecting the same as ours.

I get your point but... dinosaurs and people really never conflicted. mother nature got rid of dinosaurs.

Let me guess. You're a geek.

[Rani Lakshmibai]

Thus, I do have a culture shock of sorts whenever people mention they have an officer shortage problem.

Thus, could you explain further why officer recruiting is down?

Well you are absolutely right about the officer-trooper status bias in India (but correct me if I'm wrong, even in the US Army the officers are considered 'gentlemen', while the enlisted men are not). My father says that I should get a degree (working on it right now) before I join the military. I ask him why and he tells me in a derogatory tone that the enlisted soldier just sits around polishing the officers boots. Which, correct me if I'm wrong lemontree, is a load of BS. And nothing annoys me so much as smug suggestions that I'm better than an another person because I'm going to spend four years reading Management and Economics textbooks. Oh, I'll come out as Aryabhatta I will.

For once, I'm glad I grew up outside India, in the Gulf. I was close enough to be brought up Indian in every way but far enough away that the 'evils' of Indian society did not rub off on me. Especially the bias against shudras and adivasis thing.

Officer recruiting is down Colonel because, quite simply, every guy (or girl) who goes to college comes out looking for a well-paying job, especially in the better-than-usual Indian economy. And Indian society and parents encourage people to go into better and higher paying jobs, not military service (that's generally speaking of course, there are millions of parents who encourage military service). Take my father (and mother), he doesn't want me going for military service. He's worried I'll come back in pieces, like his cousin who died in the 1971 Pakistan war (poor guy, newly-wed too, his wife had to bring up their child alone). And if I make it in, may be I will come back dead. But that's no excuse for not serving though. But all this makes for a shortage of about 10,000 junior officers though I don't think we have any shortages for enlisted personnel.

Military service is not too close to most young people's minds and soldiers' bodies coming back every couple of days from Kashmir, reports of a BSF officer tortured to death by Bangladesh rifles etc. certainly don't help. If you want recruitment to drop, engage in a low-intensity conflict and have hostile neighbours. Plus, the military is seen as a place where ignorant people with no options go, especially by the upper class. What a load of bull.

Could you elaborate further? If your standards are the same as ours, then you should be expecting the same as ours.

The CBSE secondary school system is garbage. Its focus is on memorization and spitting out, not analysis. I studied Hindi for eight years under CBSE, and 'Tumhara nam kya hei?' is the most Hindi I can speak. The system was designed to make babus for the British Civil Service, not produce thinkers. And sadly, the system has still not changed. But it's still good for math, science, economics but not all that good for languages or arts...

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Oh btw, Captain uh... lemontree :), I'd be most grateful if I could confer with you on this matter since I can't just take the bus to Toronto and talk to the local Indian Army recruiter there :D. Oh I sent you a message about the Gorkhas, did you get it?

[lemontree]

Thus, I do have a culture shock of sorts whenever people mention they have an officer shortage problem.

Thus, could you explain further why officer recruiting is down?

Colonel sir,
50 years ago the choice for employment in India was medicine, engineering, law, civil services (incl admin/police/foreign services), and the armed forces.
Today as you know the avenues for employment in the corporate world or self employment are wide open, hence the number of youngsters joining up have reduced.

Regarding the educational standards of our troops. Sir as you are aware the vast majority of soldiers in the Indian army are from rural backgrounds and the school system is run by the respective state govts. So even though the education is in vernacular medium, the quality in these rural schools is not up to the standard of urban areas. One reason is that private schools are better than the state govt run schools. In India the jesuit/ church run schools were the back bone of the edn system now other secular institutions are filling that gap, but this mainly in cities and towns not in the villages, which where our troops cpme from.

Could you elaborate further? If your standards are the same as ours, then you should be expecting the same as ours.

Sir, as I mentioned the rural educational schools are the reason, in north america the schooling quality is more or less standard, but not here.

The CBSE secondary school system is garbage. Its focus is on memorization and spitting out, not analysis. I studied Hindi for eight years under CBSE, and 'Tumhara nam kya hei?'

Rani Lakshmibai,
That is not true, the system is on par with the best in the world. For developing oneself there are higher institutions of learning, why blame a system that is churning the force that is grabbing the jobs in the world.

[Aryaramnaes]

I agree with Lemontree. I have studied in the CBSE system as well as the ICSE system. I have done British A levels for 11 and 12, and my school also had American School diplomas, and the International Baccalaureate.

The Indian system, while it lacks in applied analysis in certain subjects, is definitely the best. This is because it lays such a rigid theoretical framework in your mind that you never forget what you learnt. I still remember my Sanskrit from grade 7. The British system, relies way too much on practical analysis and has very little theory to it, I studied a few days in advance to my finals in grade 12, and i got A's and B's. I attribute that to the rigid training I got in the Indian system.

Also, as Lemontree mentioned, Indian educated students are doing very well, in Universities abroad, like mine at U of Toronto, and getting high profile jobs as a result.

The state run schools are a different story, there are a little less thorough and lack quality teachers.

[Rani Lakshmibai]

Well, maybe I should rephrase what I said earlier. The CBSE as I said before, gives you a rigid theoretical background and focuses on theory and memorization, which is good for mathematics, science, economics and courses like that.

However, learning the theory over and over does not help you to really pick up languages for instance. Instead of just reading and memorizing questions and answers for Hindi, the teachers should have taught us how to say the words and what the mean, speaking the words and encouraging us to repeat after them. I took a French course here in the 11th Standard that was geared towards beginners (and followed the things I suggested above) and the result is that I can speak more French from a six month course than Hindi from eight years of memorizing. Hmmm... since every other Indian student is doing well, maybe I just suck.... :D

Aryaramnaes, did I understand correctly that you go to U of T? Which campus? What do you study? I go to the Scarborough one for Management.

[Officer of Engineers]

I've met enough students from around the world to know one thing. There is no such thing is the best system. The one thing that foreign students studying in other countries (and that includes Americans and Canadians in India and China) forget is that they are above average students or at the very least, failure is not an option (vis-a-vi their parents).

Each national system is geared towards maximum output of graduating students based on their criteria which includes their own culture. Let's put it this way, on average, a student with failing grades in India would not have any better luck studying in Canada.

I applaud you guys for finding the right way to study but it doesn't mean that you're smarter than the prof who's lecturing you.

[sniperdude411]

I've met enough students from around the world to know one thing. There is no such thing is the best system. The one thing that foreign students studying in other countries (and that includes Americans and Canadians in India and China) forget is that they are above average students or at the very least, failure is not an option (vis-a-vi their parents).

Each national system is geared towards maximum output of graduating students based on their criteria which includes their own culture. Let's put it this way, on average, a student with failing grades in India would not have any better luck studying in Canada.

I applaud you guys for finding the right way to study but it doesn't mean that you're smarter than the prof who's lecturing you.

The US education isn't totally pathetic IMO, it's the kids who fail. They all have the capacity to learn the things, but they choose to go smoke pot instead. The parents also have a huge role in the raising of their children.
Like the coroner from CSI: Vegas said, "Whose fault do you think it is that childhood is getting shorter and shorter?"
In Japan, it's not the kid's fault for getting bad grades, it's the parents' fault. Somewhat true IMO.

[Rani Lakshmibai]

True, and there is no real necessity either. By which I mean that someone who doesn't study doesn't face starvation or anything. Yeah it's not going to be a pleasant or wealthy lifestyle if you are uneducated, but not a horrible one.

Something I've been thinking about that I think really influences Western culture is the media. The media of course, exists to sell itself and that's why they provide what sells i.e. they appeal to human nature. Hence the existence of porn, violence, WWE, the emphasis on fashion, stick thin fashion models, popularity=social life=sex=good thing and crap like that. A couple of decades of that, and you are going to have a lot of problems. And sure enough America has the highest population in prison of any industrialized nation, perhaps even the world.

And with that kind of crap blaring from everywhere you turn, no wonder kids wanna play in the NBA or rap instead of studying. I think the same thing is starting to infect India too. This is NOT good.

[Shek]

True, and there is no real necessity either. By which I mean that someone who doesn't study doesn't face starvation or anything. Yeah it's not going to be a pleasant or wealthy lifestyle if you are uneducated, but not a horrible one.

Something I've been thinking about that I think really influences Western culture is the media. The media of course, exists to sell itself and that's why they provide what sells i.e. they appeal to human nature. Hence the existence of porn, violence, WWE, the emphasis on fashion, stick thin fashion models, popularity=social life=sex=good thing and crap like that. A couple of decades of that, and you are going to have a lot of problems. And sure enough America has the highest population in prison of any industrialized nation, perhaps even the world.

And with that kind of crap blaring from everywhere you turn, no wonder kids wanna play in the NBA or rap instead of studying. I think the same thing is starting to infect India too. This is NOT good.

That's a highly prejudicial view of America. You talk about the influence of the media; yet, you don't recognize that your view of America seems to be shaped entire by what you see on the TV or in the print. I deal with everyday American's everyday, and I don't see a decline in morality or a propensity to violence. Do TV and Hollywood stars have an influence on fashion for teenagerrs, yes. For adults, not really. Do I like the messages found in gangsta rap? No. Is that the reason for inner city gangs and inner city violence? I don't think it helps, but our failed social policies created in the 60s that developed large density low income housing and a welfare system that had a disincentive to seek regular employment and an incentive to have numerous children play a much bigger role in the answer that tape recordings.

As far as the highest prison population, as one of the largest nations in the world, that statistic isn't that revealing. What would be more revealing is the statistics that correlate to that. Is there more crime? Are those violent crimes or misdemeanors? What is the effectiveness of the law enforcement system in catching criminals, resisting bribes? What are the average length of prison sentences? What is the effectiveness of prosecuting crimes? The answers to these types of questions will confirm or deny whether the popular media is corrupting our society.

[lemontree]

The US education isn't totally pathetic IMO, it's the kids who fail. They all have the capacity to learn the things, but they choose to go smoke pot instead. The parents also have a huge role in the raising of their children.
Like the coroner from CSI: Vegas said, "Whose fault do you think it is that childhood is getting shorter and shorter?"
In Japan, it's not the kid's fault for getting bad grades, it's the parents' fault. Somewhat true IMO.

Its a case of "Spare the rod and spoil the child"...
From what I hear, the rules of parents reprimanding their kids are very strict. If a kid reports being hit by a parent, then he or she can go to prision. Such rules have a filp side too..

[Rani Lakshmibai]

I must disagree. Immodest attire among women was rare and not socially acceptable in India - until Bollywood stars started dressing that way. That act gave regular women, teens especially, the license to do the same. Nowadays you have teenage girls slipping into Western, revealing outfits and walking through the streets in major cities - something unimaginable a generation ago except among prostitutes.

The messages are subliminal and they hit you where it hurts. They are designed to reach your unconscious and provoke deep-seated fears. If only teens fall for the magazine and MTV screaming about women having to be slim, wear makeup etc. why do a significant percentage of adult women shave (or have laser hair removal done) their legs, wear makeup, and often wear tight or revealing clothing? And don't tell me that the demand for plastic surgery, breast enhancement and like is driven by teens.

What about the violence? Do you think that living in a sea of media including full-length colour, computer-enhanced/aided movies don't alter behaviour? Watching violent acts speeds up the heartrate and breathing, sometimes even stimulates adrenaline release as well as brain stimulants especially in 'Horror-chainsaw-wielding nutcase' type of movies. The average teen male in North America has seen upwards of 40,000 murders by the time they reach adulthood. I'm inclined to believe that this has some effect, if not easily visible, on the viewer.

And I again beg to differ about America being a populous country. America has less than a fourth of China's population and a third of India's. And yet has a higher incarcerated population than either. Quite remarkable especially considering that communist China has little compunctions in running labour camps for just about everyone they consider a threat to communist rule besides the regular criminals. And yet, America has a greater number of people under incarceration? That is quite amazing. Despite stiff sentences being handed out by American courts, including death sentences for murders and rapes, I don't think the crime rate is coming down, but verify that for me.

[Shek]

I must disagree. Immodest attire among women was rare and not socially acceptable in India - until Bollywood stars started dressing that way. That act gave regular women, teens especially, the license to do the same. Nowadays you have teenage girls slipping into Western, revealing outfits and walking through the streets in major cities - something unimaginable a generation ago except among prostitutes.

The messages are subliminal and they hit you where it hurts. They are designed to reach your unconscious and provoke deep-seated fears. If only teens fall for the magazine and MTV screaming about women having to be slim, wear makeup etc. why do a significant percentage of adult women shave (or have laser hair removal done) their legs, wear makeup, and often wear tight or revealing clothing? And don't tell me that the demand for plastic surgery, breast enhancement and like is driven by teens.

What about the violence? Do you think that living in a sea of media including full-length colour, computer-enhanced/aided movies don't alter behaviour? Watching violent acts speeds up the heartrate and breathing, sometimes even stimulates adrenaline release as well as brain stimulants especially in 'Horror-chainsaw-wielding nutcase' type of movies. The average teen male in North America has seen upwards of 40,000 murders by the time they reach adulthood. I'm inclined to believe that this has some effect, if not easily visible, on the viewer.

And I again beg to differ about America being a populous country. America has less than a fourth of China's population and a third of India's. And yet has a higher incarcerated population than either. Quite remarkable especially considering that communist China has little compunctions in running labour camps for just about everyone they consider a threat to communist rule besides the regular criminals. And yet, America has a greater number of people under incarceration? That is quite amazing. Despite stiff sentences being handed out by American courts, including death sentences for murders and rapes, I don't think the crime rate is coming down, but verify that for me.

I pulled up some information on crime and incarceration in the US. I've put the data below. The general information is that crime has decreased over the last decade (shouldn't it increase with the increase in cable stations, satellite TV, internet, etc.?) and that the largest reason for the large US prison population is an increased percentage of criminals being brought to prosecution, convicted, imprisoned, and stiffer penalties. The number of executions per year hasn't been over 100 since 1951 and our death row population is under 3500, so the most serious crimes deserving of death are few and far between. That being said, we are still the leading nation in violent crime among Western industrialized nations, with poor gun registration and tracking systems accounting for the majority of that difference.

Women shaving their legs has everything to do with Western standards of decency and nothing to do with TV. I am still haunted by childhood memories of images of East German sprinters raising their arms in triumph after winning races in the Olympics and exposing hairy armpits. I was much more affected by this than by watching Jack Nicholson in The Shining, since I knew The Shining was cinema but that the hairy armpits were real. As far as laser hair removal surgery, having you ever had to take a shower after your wife/girlfriend shaves her legs? I'd be willing to pay for it if my wife wanted to just so I could take a shower worry free of running out of hot water.

Do these images of violence and sexuality affect today's children? I'm sure that they have some impact, but to argue that this has a high correlation to violence or more appropriately, in a major contributing factor is off target IMO except in some rare cases. My belief is that the disinegration of the nuclear family (both parents are married, they have dinners together without distractions, the parents are deeply involved in the upbringing of their kids and don't rely on nannies or other care takers to raise their kids for them) is your major contributing factor.

As far as immodest clothing, you can also trace its lineage to the rising independence of Western women. However, your biggest "offenders" are still teenagers and those in their college years. It's hard to find scantily clad women older than 25, whether it's because they no longer have the goods to show, they have become more conservative as they have aged due to marriage, having kids on their own, etc.

Here's a bunch of statics and charts for you to browse. The highlights for each chart is stated below. Unfortunately, none of the stats are given in a per capita format that allows for easier comparison between countries. Also, the stats don't explain why crime has decreased.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm#Crime

Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993.
Property crime declined through 2002 and stabilized in 2003.
Violent crime rates declined for both males and females since 1994. Rates for males and females have been getting closer in recent years.
Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993.
The estimated number of arrests for drug abuse violations increased from 2002 to 2003.
The percentage of crimes reported to the police has been increasing.
The proportion of those convicted in Federal court who are sentenced to prison has been increasing.
Of cases concluded in Federal district court since 1989, drug cases have increased at the greatest rate.
The number of adults convicted of a felony in State courts has been increasing.
Over two thirds of the felons convicted in State courts were sentenced to prison or jail.
The number of adults in the correctional population has been increasing.
Over half of the increase in the prison population since 1995 is due to an increase in the prisoners convicted of violent offenses.
After sharp increases in the 1980s and 1990s, the incarceration rate has recently grown at a slower pace.
The number of prisoners under sentence of death at yearend 2003 decreased for the third consecutive year.
Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, more than half of those under sentence of death have been white.
In 2004, 59 inmates were executed, 6 fewer than in 2003.
Direct expenditure for each of the major criminal justice functions (police, corrections, judicial) has been increasing.
States spend more on criminal justice than municipalities, counties, or the Federal government.

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http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf

The national inmate population is now six times that of the approximately 330,000 total of 1972, just prior to the inception of the modern day “get tough” movement.

Comparing crime rates across national boundaries is a complicated task, made
particularly difficult by differences in the definition of various offenses and reporting
methodologies. The most sophisticated data available results from a series of
victimization surveys conducted among 17 industrialized nations, including the U.S.,
since the late 1980s.5 The results of these surveys are instructive.
Overall, U.S. rates of victimization are generally in the mid-range of the nations
surveyed. In fact, for a variety of offenses, American citizens are at less risk of
victimization than their counterparts in other nations.

For violent crimes, though, Americans are considerably less safe than citizens of
other countries. Of particular note here is a comparison of murder rates, the most well
reported offense in all countries. Over the past decade we have seen a sharp, and
welcome, decline in homicides in the U.S., falling from a rate of 9.8 per 100,000 in
1991to 5.6 in 2001. Yet despite this 43% drop, the homicide rate in the U.S. is still about four times that of most nations in western Europe.

Since that period (1974 and before), though, there is little evidence to indicate that changes in crime have been the driving force in expanding the prison population. In the most sophisticated analysis of these factors, criminologists Alfred Blumstein and Allen Beck examined the near-tripling of the prison population during the period 1980-96 and concluded that changes in crime explained only 12% of the prison rise, while changes in sentencing policy accounted for 88% of the increase.7 Essentially, persons arrested for a felony offense became far more likely to be sentenced to prison (accounting for 51% of the increase) and to be sentenced for a longer period of time in prison (37% of the increase). Newly adopted policies such as mandatory sentencing, “truth in sentencing,” and increasingly, “three strikes and you’re out” laws have resulted in a far more punitive justice system than in years past.

But over the past two decades, the most significant change in the composition of the U.S. prison population has been the dramatic increase in the number of persons incarcerated for a drug offense. In 1980, prisons and jails held about 40,000 inmates for drug offenses. That figure has increased more than ten-fold to about 450,000 today, nearly a quarter of all inmates. Thus, despite the fact that the U.S. has a higher rate of violent crime than other industrialized nations, much of the unprecedented prison population increase of recent years is explained not by crime rates but by changes in sentencing and drug policy.

Conclusion
The high rate of imprisonment in the United States can be explained by several
factors:
· A higher rate of violent crime than other industrialized nations.
· Harsher sentencing practices than in other nations, particularly for property and drug
offenses.
· Sentencing policy changes over a period of three decades, particularly the shift
toward mandatory and determinate sentencing, restrictions on judicial discretion, and
a greater emphasis on imprisonment as a preferred sanction.
· Policy changes adopted as part of the “war on drugs,” leading to a vastly increased
use of the criminal justice system as a means of responding to drug problems.
None of the preceding suggests that crime is not a problem or that government has
no responsibility in this area. Rather, what we can learn from an international perspective on the use of incarceration is that the means by which different nations respond to issues of crime and punishment is very much a reflection of policy choices. As we have seen, the consequences of these decisions are wide-ranging and, as is the case in the United States today, have collateral consequences that extend well beyond immediate criminal justice decisionmaking. Unless we address these issues in a comprehensive manner, we risk not only perpetuating ineffective criminal justice policies but aggravating other social problems as well.

[Bill]

"That being said, we are still the leading nation in violent crime among Western industrialized nations, with poor gun registration and tracking systems accounting for the majority of that difference."

Umm, say what?

[Shek]

"That being said, we are still the leading nation in violent crime among Western industrialized nations, with poor gun registration and tracking systems accounting for the majority of that difference."

Umm, say what?

I was talking out of the side of my neck with that one (in regards to the last half of the statement). Not sure what I thinking. Must have been my self-torture tactic of coming back in to a frigid, air conditioned house after working up a sweat in the 90 degree heat with 90% humidity while doing some landscaping in the yard.

The point that I was trying to get across is that you still have some guns out there from long ago that were sold to folks that would no longer be able to purchase due to the Brady Bill/similar state acts that existed prior to the Brady Bill or are now in the hand of those who aren't supposed to have them due to non-enforcement of some existing provisions in state and federal laws. The presence of guns is not the problem.