Proof..the truth starts to come about

[Double Edge]

That the wife has been there for five years. As gunnut pointed out that does not necessarily imply OBL was there at that house as well for that length of time.

Does it matter whether he was at that house, he was somewhere in Pakistan and has been there since his escape from Tora Bora.

[YellowFever]

The fact that ST6 felt the need to use stealth copters tells me that indeed this was not a joint operation but one thing that bothers me is (and I have not been keeping up to date as I should wrt this matter) that according to the last article I read, the Americans informed the Paks about this operation soon after ST6 took off to nab OBL.

Why not before or after?

Was this a case of "we got people in Pak and we don't want you to interfere."?

Which pretty much tells me that the U.S. government thinks the Paks have been hiding him.

So tell me what's wrong with my so called brilliant analysis? :)

[notorious_eagle]

I am not sure how much I agree with that, given that it was Haqqani in DC who allowed thousands of visas for US personnel without proper scrutiny. Of course the ISI could have still done a better job of monitoring the individuals, but the sheer numbers would require significant resources. Of course, I am unaware of the specific criticizm against him, and whether it is merited by a poor performance on his part in areas other than 'monitoring thousands of American officials' in Pakistan.

Interesting to note the barrage of opinions in the English language press that is critical of the ISI/PA as well - the US's 'media program' paying dividends. Thankfully, those opinions in the English press have little popular following in Pakistan, with the Urdu language TV media garnering a much larger following.

On another note, IMO, given the fact that we are at war and facing threats on multiple fronts, people advocating opinions such as those of Farhat Taj, and their contacts in Pakistan, should be arrested and tried for treason in military courts. While in normal times their opinions might be tolerable in the guise of 'freedom of speech', in a time of war, advocating in support of a foreign entity conducting military operations on Pakistani soil is nothing less than treason.

Apologies for not being clear, pressure is building on Pasha for the fiasco that just happened. There has to be blood and it looks like Pasha will take the fall and resign from service. The question is, who is going to replace him? Is it going to be someone deserving of the position or just a subordinate of the incompetent PPP Government. Lt Gen Tariq Khan's name has been floating for a while now for either the position of COAS or DG ISI, i would certainly be very happy if in case Pasha resigns, the command is given to Tariq Khan. Dont even get me started on that SOB Haqqani, he's more of an Ambassador to the United States than he is to Pakistan.

It already appears that Army is putting its foot down and COAS has ordered the Americans to reduce their foot print in Pakistan. Although i have no problems with Americans targeting these SOB's as long as it is with Pakistan's consent. I still don't understand why the Americans don't transfer the drone technology to Pakistan, it certainly will be mutually beneficial as this will reduce the public anger against the US in Pakistan. Ahh well, i guess we have to wait until our own UCAV project comes online which is not far away. Farhat Taj along with some other journalists whom are darling of the West deserve to be tried for treason against Pakistan, its only because of the Army whom they soo fondly criticize are they allowed to share their opinion freely.

[Officer of Engineers]

I still don't understand why the Americans don't transfer the drone technology to Pakistan,

Because Pakistan would then transfer that technology to China?

[notorious_eagle]

Because Pakistan would then transfer that technology to China?

Sir that is B.S, thats a fallacy that has been floated around similar to Pakistan transferring an F16 to PRC. Americans conduct routine inventory check of the armaments and hardware that are in possession of Pakistan and they are satisfied with Pakistan's track record. American military equipment is off limits to the Chinese, similar to the latest Chinese military equipment being off limits to the Americans. US Military Attache keeps a thorough track of all the sensitive American technology that is operated by Pakistan, if drone technology is transferred to Pakistan it would be no different.

[S2]

A.M. & notorious eagle Reply

"Farhat Taj along with some other journalists whom are darling of the West deserve to be tried for treason against Pakistan, its only because of the Army whom they soo fondly criticize are they allowed to share their opinion freely."

She's in Norway, thank God. Irfan Husain and others, though, are within arm's reach. Nice to know, though, that at least notorious eagle believes it's the army actually controlling your courts.

Whom, btw, have you declared war upon? Yourselves? If so that would make sense insofar as los disappearos are concerned-

Robert Fisk: Into The Terrifying World Of Pakistan's "Disappeared"-Independant March 18, 2010

A.M., that's a real cheap shot you took at Rabzon elsewhere, btw.

[Dreadnought]

Why would it have raised a red flag? She said she never left the compound in that time either. There are reports as of yet that any neighbors either saw OBL or suspected OBL.
So what would raise a 'red flag'?

And let me point out again that Pakistan has clearly stated that the couriers phone number that led to the US finding OBL's hideout was provided by the ISI - they would not be handing over critical intelligence like that to the US if they were in fact 'hiding him'.


I also gave you facts and figures supporting my position, that Pakistan can generate more revenues than it takes in through aid and loans. All you are offering is speculation.

Nonsense - since Pakistan neutralized several high level AQ leaders, and provided critical intelligence that led to the US finding OBL.

That doesn't apply either. There was no 'suspicious activity' at the compound. There was no 'bomb making', no massive 'bomb materials or weapons shipments' transiting to and fro from the compound. No 'large groups of suspicious men' moving in and out. OBL was never spotted by anyone, and likely never stepped out of the compound once there.

So what was there to be suspicious about?

I have to choose neither since neither applies.

If the wife of the worlds most renowed terrorists comes into the country or was already in the country and then locates in to a rented property, common sense states he's not far behind or he will be in contact. That in itself should have raised a red flag to intelligence. Apparently it did not or they refused to raise that point with US intelligence so im going with option B.

By the way, funny how you seem to like your own posts.

We have a word here in America for the way this turned out its called "BULLSHIT".

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir that is B.S, thats a fallacy that has been floated around similar to Pakistan transferring an F16 to PRC. Americans conduct routine inventory check of the armaments and hardware that are in possession of Pakistan and they are satisfied with Pakistan's track record.

Hehehehahahahahahaha, Son, I think we are cross communicating here. The Americans NEVER TRANSFER MILITARY MANUFACTURING TECHNOLOGIES TO PAKISTAN. You cannot reverse engineer a F-16. The Americans were never going to allow Pakistan anything more than light maintenance on the F-16s.

American military equipment is off limits to the Chinese,

Well, the suspicion was that we found F-16 manuals written in Chinese.

similar to the latest Chinese military equipment being off limits to the Americans.

Well, how about the Libyans? Qaddafy surrendered his AQ Khan's documents which included a CICH-4 nuclear warhead blueprint.

US Military Attache keeps a thorough track of all the sensitive American technology that is operated by Pakistan, if drone technology is transferred to Pakistan it would be no different.

Pakistan was never trusted with anything above battlefield maintenance.

[Double Edge]

Ooh, a SECOND yellow belly sighting in a long while :)

The fact that ST6 felt the need to use stealth copters tells me that indeed this was not a joint operation but one thing that bothers me is (and I have not been keeping up to date as I should wrt this matter) that according to the last article I read, the Americans informed the Paks about this operation soon after ST6 took off to nab OBL.

Why not before or after?

Not a joint op but you had their permission to go in at a time of your choosing. Why use steath ? to help ensure you get away clean. It helps them if it can be shown they did not know.

GoP: we did now know they came (works for this op as well as any other Al-Q leader hiding in Pakistan)

Was this a case of "we got people in Pak and we don't want you to interfere."?

They cordoned off the area but did not get involved. There was an understanding in place.

Which pretty much tells me that the U.S. government thinks the Paks have been hiding him.

So tell me what's wrong with my so called brilliant analysis? :)

Its not about thinking, everybody knows they hide ppl. Hundreds of al-Q operatives handed over, in which country were they all caught ? yep, you guessed right.

The problem is showing that they are knowingly doing this. How the heck do you counter the GoP when they say 'i don't know' ?

The case is circumstantial in the sense there is no way a country could unknowingly allow this to happen.

Think back to getting them to move into Swat & Buner. As in defending their own soverign territory from other influences. Kept on putting it off. This is actually a larger instance of when they refuse to act compared to not going after al-q operatives.

In this case it was decided best way to get the job done was yourself.

[Agnostic Muslim]

"Farhat Taj along with some other journalists whom are darling of the West deserve to be tried for treason against Pakistan, its only because of the Army whom they soo fondly criticize are they allowed to share their opinion freely."

She's in Norway, thank God.

She travels to Pakistan for her so called 'research' doesn't she? And then there is her organisation and those affiliated with it and with her who reside in Pakistan.

Irfan Husain and others, though, are within arm's reach. Nice to know, though, that at least notorious eagle believes it's the army actually controlling your courts.

I might have missed it, but I don't recall IH advocating in favor of US military operations on Pakistani territory, and as such I have no issue with him and his opinions, even though they are often critical of the military. Criticism of the military is not an issue - advocating in favor of foreign military operations on Pakistani territory is.

Whom, btw, have you declared war

Terrorists and insurgents ofcourse.

A.M., that's a real cheap shot you took at Rabzon elsewhere, btw.

No it wasn't - he crossed a line when taking a position similar to Format Taj on foreign military ops inside Pakistan.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Hehehehahahahahahaha, Son, I think we are cross communicating here. The Americans NEVER TRANSFER MILITARY MANUFACTURING TECHNOLOGIES TO PAKISTAN. You cannot reverse engineer a F-16. The Americans were never going to allow Pakistan anything more than light maintenance on the F-16s.

I do not believe Pakistan is asking for domestic production of the Predator or Reader - the reference to technology is in the context of providing equipment.

[Agnostic Muslim]

If the wife of the worlds most renowed terrorists comes into the country or was already in the country and then locates in to a rented property, common sense states he's not far behind or he will be in contact. That in itself should have raised a red flag to intelligence. Apparently it did not or they refused to raise that point with US intelligence so im going with option B.

She gave an interview in 2002 in Yemen I believe where she indicated she would rejoin obl, what was the US doing? Did they monitor her movements? Why just blame Pakistan for not tracking her entry and movements? This guy was on your most wanted list, not ours.

By the way, funny how you seem to like your own posts.

Getting a little paranoid and frustrated at not having any credible evidence or arguments are we?
It May surprise you, but there are more than just one Pakistani commentators online who can offer articulate and coherent arguments and take the positions I do.

As far as the way things turned out, you May want to try applying that term to you own Intel failure that resulted in 9/11 in the first place. Mossad and CIA conspiracy eh? :-D

[nvishal]

They cordoned off the area but did not get involved. There was an understanding in place.

Not understanding. Pakistan gave away the bait. They watched as the americans took and run away with it. US won't implicate the PA for any "perfidy" because they need the supply routes. So pakistan knew US would continue to "play" stupid as before.

So with OBL gone, does it change the US policy in afghanistan in any way? We will just have to wait and see if their gamble worked. Does the US withdraw from afg?

Pakistan had a free run in afghanistan before 9/11. Everything has been on a hold since then. The US occupation in afg has allowed the indians to build a little goodwill in the side. Pakistan is terrified and wants US out of there. Osama was the king in the jihadi chessboard. But now this king is dead.

What "achievable" purposes has the USA got in afghanistan now?

"Rebuilding afg" is out of the question because pakistan won't allow any normalcy to prevail in afg if taliban is kept out from the ruling afg govt. And pakistan cannot control afg if the taliban is missing.

[tankie]

She gave an interview in 2002 in Yemen I believe where she indicated she would rejoin obl, what was the US doing? Did they monitor her movements? Why just blame Pakistan for not tracking her entry and movements? This guy was on your most wanted list, not ours.

And a massive part of the world's wanted list as well , now with your statement i guess the Pak Govt is advocating and endorsing terrorism whilst telling the rest of the world they are co,operating in the fight against ladins (deceased) AQ

[Double Edge]

Not understanding. Pakistan gave away the bait. They watched as the americans took and run away with it. US won't implicate the PA for any "perfidy" because they need the supply routes. So pakistan knew US would continue to "play" stupid as before.

Can you show how US can implicate PA for perfidy in this instance ?

Circumstantially sure, more directly am afraid not

The US case is slightly different from the Indian one. In our case they say NO, to the US they say 'we did not know'. They play dumb.

Anyway, ball is in the US court now.

So with OBL gone, does it change the US policy in afghanistan in any way? We will just have to wait and see if their gamble worked. Does the US withdraw from afg?

No, they stay till they are satisified. Handing over OBL was never for the intention of getting US to withdraw from afg. OBL was just one card of several to keep the US relying on Pakistan. Is Al-Q dead now ? no, so there are stil more cards left to get. They all live in Pakistan.

I don't believe that Pakistan wants the US to quit, because then where is the need for Pakistan. They will always be of more use when the US is in rather than out.

Pakistan had a free run in afghanistan before 9/11. Everything has been on a hold since then. The US occupation in afg has allowed the indians to build a little goodwill in the side. Pakistan is terrified and wants US out of there. Osama was the king in the jihadi chessboard. But now this king is dead.

What "achievable" purposes has the USA got in afghanistan now?

See previous answer.

"Rebuilding afg" is out of the question because pakistan won't allow any normalcy to prevail in afg if taliban is kept out from the ruling afg govt. And pakistan cannot control afg if the taliban is missing.

OOE mentioned a while back that afg would become a proxy battlegorund in the future for the major powers in the area. On reflection i think this would be a bad state for the US to leave afg in. You want to leave a place more stable than when you entered it. Stability is preferred outcome. Failing which an afg that can adequately defend herself from nefarious designs would be the last resort.