Afghanistan 'had Abbottabad lead four years ago'

[Double Edge]

The White House demanded no retraction since it suits them to propagate propaganda to malign Pakistan in the media while trying to act chummy with the military and intelligence.

Why would the white house want to 'propagate propaganda to malign Pakistan' ?

Isn't Pakistan an ally of the US since the 60s. Does the US do this with their other allies. Then why only with Pakistan. Is this realtionship really as one sided as you claim it to be.

[Yusuf]

Everyone should go on with the assumption that Pakistan will never agree to an independent strong Afghanistan because such an Afghanistan will immediately lay claim to a huge chunk of Pakistani territory. It boils to this and they will do anything,support any faction of the Taliban to prevent the appearance of a strong nation state in Afghanistan.

Odds are that Taliban in Astan would one day run over entire Pakistan.

I mean it already a concern in the world of Pakistan falling to extremists and their nukes falling in their hands.

[calass]

Odds are that Taliban in Astan would one day run over entire Pakistan.

I mean it already a concern in the world of Pakistan falling to extremists and their nukes falling in their hands.

Not entire Pakistan..that is impossible, the Punjabis will never allow that. But surely all the Pushtun areas including large parts of Baluchistan and parts of Sindh. The Pakistani establishment knows it very well which is why Afghanistan has to be always in a stage of flux to maintain the territorial integrity of Pakistan.

[Yusuf]

Either way, Taliban cannot be allowed to be anywhere close to Kabul. Killing of OBL is job just begun not ended. It would be really foolish to abandon AfPak now and end the war on terror. 10 years and more than a trillion dollars cannot be spent on just one Osama. The world is not a safe place yet. Not with the people in Rawalpindi on the side of terrorists.

[Double Edge]

Not entire Pakistan..that is impossible, the Punjabis will never allow that.

Agree. The idea that Pakistan could fall to the Taliban only suits Pakistani propaganda. They need help to fight them off etc.

[S2]

Yusuf Reply

"It would be really foolish to abandon AfPak now and end the war on terror. 10 years and more than a trillion dollars cannot be spent on just one Osama."

I doubt seriously that all that treasure was spent solely on chasing OBL. You would too if you've followed this war and the myriad projects undertaken by the U.S. and others.

Still, it's not our responsibility to indefinitely or permanently underwrite the GoA. We've done so heretofore at great cost. If this is a global burden with all sharing in the benefits of a stabilized Afghanistan and there remains more work to be done let others (including Afghans) take a greater role.

Like Iraq, Afghans must wish to capitalize on the window of opportunity we've provided to carve out their state and secure it from others. Like America, others in the immediate region must see the benefit to a stabilized Afghanistan free of islamist radicals and do a greater share to assist the Afghans.

If not I assure we'll be leaving in any case and civil war will be a near certainty. Oddly enough, I can almost certainly assure the participation of neighboring states in that possible conflict.

Who will act responsibly beforehand to preclude its occurrence? America, America and more America? I sincerely hope not.

[1980s]

YouTube - Talk to Jazeera - Amrullah Saleh - 30 Sep 08 - Part 1 YouTube - Talk to Jazeera - Amrullah Saleh - 30 Sep 08 - Part 2

It's an interview from 2008 with Saleh.Could have been yesterday.

I remember seeing that interview sometime back. I have much respect for Saleh. Here's a more recent report:

I wonder how close he remains to his erstwhile N.A Tajik allies such as Burhanuddin Rabbani, Mohammad Fahim and Ismail Khan - probably not so close with Rabbani since he's the chairman of the Afghan High Peace Council. But Saleh would likely find allies in Dostam and Atta Mohammad Nur, if Nur isnt already in is camp (probably he is).

Anway, you heard it from him: "a deal [with the Taliban] is dangerous, and will lead to another civil-strife".

[Yusuf]

Question, what if it is proved that protection for OBL and other terrorists came from the highest level, something that would hardly surprise Indians as GHQ has used terror as a state policy against us.

[Yusuf]

S2, sir, the job comes to your country considering it's pre-eminence. You cannot wish it away. Any half measure is a certain recipe for disaster.

[S2]

Yusuf Reply

"S2, sir, the job comes to your country considering it's pre-eminence."

Are you trying to fatten the hog for slaughter?

I've been told by some Chinese and Indians (with much glee) that America is not so "pre-eminent". There's plenty of work and a need for plenty of brave soldiers, diplomats, health-care specialists and treasure to accomplish the task.

Some might shirk from fear. Others have more nefarious designs.

In truth, Afghanistan's stability is a regional issue far more so than a global concern. Certainly this is true for America.

Some might say that's not so, of course. Afterall, we were attacked from Afghanistan. True enough. But the Afghanistan of 2001 can easily be the Somalia or Yemen of today. Anywhere instability, poor governance, and poverty coincide provides the requisite incubation chambers of terrorism. Afghanistan was just one such example. There are others and nothing guarantees we'll be the recipient of the next 9/11.

India should assume a much greater burden in Afghanistan. A viable Afghan state is of strategic and long-term economic importance to India. Will India wait until such a role is thrust upon her by civil war and the intercession of Pakistani, Russian, Chinese, CAR and Iranian interests? It would seem that is too late. Could you achieve greater purpose carving up Afghanistan with others rather than attaining access for all-most notably yourselves?

[Agnostic Muslim]

As you've found out before when you've run away snivelling to your own board to malign from afar, the only bias we have here is toward truth. We don't always get it right, but we don't deliberately get it wrong either.

Thanks for validating my point about this board's bias, intolerance and complete lack of civility.

Find any reference to 'admirers' in my past posts yet?

[Agnostic Muslim]

But surely all the Pushtun areas including large parts of Baluchistan and parts of Sindh.

Why? I see no widespread support for the Taliban in either the Pashtun dominated settled areas in KP, Baluchistan, or in Sindh.

One of S2's favorite Pakistani authors (a US paid propagandist IMO) consistently argues that the impression that even the Tribal belt has widespread support for the Taliban is a completely false perception.

[Agnostic Muslim]

God save Pakistan (or not). Adios!

Pointless rhetoric is no substitute for evidence supporting your allegation of Pakistan 'supporting' Haqqani.

And in case you missed it, I don't really have time for 'God' doing much of anything. ;)

[Agnostic Muslim]

It was formed by looking at the difference between what Pak establishment says and what it does wrt Western concerns(and that's what we care first and foremost).Add the very fact that the interests seems to be/are opposed and you get what you get.

Swap the words Pakistan and US in your commentary and the comment above might as well have been from a Pakistani.

The US says 'strategic long term relationship' - and there is absolutely no Pakistani input into the governance and security setup in Afghanistan post war, and in fact, virulently anti-Pakistan (and pro-India) individuals are put in positions of influence, while the US builds a strategic relationship with India simultaneously.

We see double standards galore in providing India an NSG exemption and civilian nuclear deal despite not being an NPT signatory, while Pakistan is denied outright, despite far bigger proliferators (Western and Asian nations that proliferated to Israel and Pakistan) already being part of the NSG. We see rejection after rejection of Pakistani requests for greater trade access instead of aid.

Pakistani concerns over Baluch and TTP terrorists being sheltered in Afghanistan are dismissed out of hand, and then wikileaks exposes both Afghanistan and the United States as sheltering the most wanted Baluch terrorist leader in Kabul. Taliban terrorists such as Qari Zia and Mullah FM of Swat fame reside in North Eastern Afghanistan, and the US has done little to prevent their attacks into Pakistani territory and on Pakistani forces and civilians.

There is a whole list of complaints on the Pakistani side that mirrors the one on the US side - the difference being that the Western media (US mostly really), by far the more dominant, tends to push Western Establishment propaganda, and sel-censor under the guise of 'national security' and therefore not highlight or expose these acts of deceit and treachery by the US.

[Tronic]

Pointless rhetoric is no substitute for evidence supporting your allegation of Pakistan 'supporting' Haqqani.

AM, there comes a time when not much is left to be said. You were talking about imprisonment of a foreign figure in a foreign country because he made a speech 'threatening' war on his own country (not that the country as one entity will exist if things get that far) if it shook hands with the Taliban.

When I directed you towards Haqqani having a safe refuge in your country, 'waging' a war against a foreign country, you stated there was no case against imprisoning Haqqani unless he waged war against the Pakistani state, meaning that all others are fair game.

And when stating the obvious to you, it just means that Haqqani has the support of the Pakistani state (in the normal sense, "support" can just mean allowing your territory to be used for elements to wage war against a neighbour). You stated there was 'no evidence' Pakistan was supporting him.

If you still fail to see the quite obvious, than really what else is there for me to say? I could go hit my head against the wall, but do I really care anymore? No. Pakistan is what it is, that mindset cant be changed.

Just talked to a Pakistani buddy of mines who was accusing India of playing bad in Balochistan, so when I stated that even if it were true, tit for tat for Kashmir? He complained that Pakistan in Kashmir was a genuine cause, while India in Balochistan was not.

I sometimes only wish you could step out of the Pakistani shoes for a second and into others and see your own views from someone else's place.

And now, don't try to take cover trying to drag my Indian flag into the topic again, my views are far from biased. I already know the ugly side of India aswell, and although being globalized and connected to the world has changed much, I've already conceded in the past that India too has shown its stomach to commit atrocities on its own people, Indian Punjab in the late 80s and early 90s was a good example, but all these topics are not the topic at hand. So try sticking to this one if you can. ;)

And in case you missed it, I don't really have time for 'God' doing much of anything. ;)

You're right but what I was stating was that if there is anyone who can save that country, its god alone. Pakistanis have displayed their incapability at nation building quite well.