INSAS vs AK47 vs M16?

[Gunny762]

AR-10, best of both worlds power, accuracy, and reliability.
Seriously now, why do people insist on AKs being better? They are rattle traps. Maybe some of the better made imports by Arsenal or the close toleranced PSLs are good guns but you won't be getting your hands on them too easily (more so with the Arsenal). Every M16 from the A1-A4 has a dust cover. When you are out in the field how damned hard is it to close this to keep sand, muck, gunk and crud out? It opens automatically as soon as the bolt is cycled, and you can close it when you are done with the firefight. The other weapons listed here do not compare. The new HK416 gas piston operated rifle has greatly improved reliability in preliminary testing at Yuma proving grounds. Sand is a ***** for every gun, AK included; you drag the AK through the sand you are guaranteed to be kick-starting the action open. Maintenance between firefights and teaching recruits to use gun oil sparingly in sandy environments is the only way to ensure the gun stays reliable.

[Gunny762]

Hk91s aint exactly what i'd call cheap either....lol.

I definitely admire HK weapons, but they're way too expensive in the US because of the import tariffs.

its not tarifs that make them expensive. The ATF are crybabies about HK weapons and HK has of recent, been favoring the law enforcement/military community rather than the civilian community for US Sales. HK91s, 93s, 94s, and SP89s are expensive because they've been banned for import for over a decade and while the supply is static, demand is ever growing. Many caught under the Clinton AWB, but HK never bothered to try again when it sunsetted, and you can't blame them when pinheaded legislators compare a fine pistol like an SP89 (MP5K Pistol) to a piece of junk Tec-9 made of exhaust pipes and pumped out of a garage for drug dealer use. HK91, 93, and 94s are no longer made and their tooling has all been sold off. You can get a built to spec and quality HK-91 made in the USA for a stellar price though, check out the PTR line from JLD (they bought the HK machinery from the Portuguese who bought it licensed from HK). Have trigger work done and you're looking at a sub-MOA semi-auto rifle for around $1000. I have one with an IOR 4x scope and love it.

[kams]

Indian Army set to receive Israeli assault rifles

After a long delay, Tavor 21's are arriving.

New Delhi, Feb 2 (IANS) India will begin receiving the first of 3,070 Israeli 5.56 mm Tavor 21 (TAR-21) assault rifles for its Special Forces later this month, according to a leading British defence journal.

This follows the resolution of technical and other problems with the $20 million (Rs.880 million) deal it finalised for the weapons almost five years ago.

Jane's Defence Weekly reports in its latest issue that the TAR-21s will have a 'modified' single-piece butt and new sights, as also Turkish 40mm M-203 under barrel grenade launchers (UBGLs) that make the rifle somewhat heavier. Singapore Technologies will supply the 5.56 mm ammunition.


The deal for TAR-21 and ammunition was clinched in late 2002 with Israel Military Industries (IMI). After the company's bifurcation over two years ago, the contract was taken over by Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) that acquired control of IMI's small arms division.



India continued dealing with IMI and in 2005 invoked contractual obligations claiming damages for the delayed deliveries, further deferring their arrival, the weekly reported.

Quoting official sources, Jane's declared that these 'glitches' had been resolved and a letter of credit for the TAR-21's delivery was opened late last year.



In 2005, IMI had supplied 350-400 TRA-21s without UBGLs for around $1.5 million to India's Special Frontier Force (SFF), a predominantly-military commando unit based in northern India that is primarily deployed by the country's two principal security agencies for 'special' missions.

These were declared to be 'operationally unsatisfactory' following problems with their foldable butt and negotiations began with IMI - and later IWI - to effect changes and for additions like UBGLs. All these were successfully tested in Israel last year and the consignment cleared for delivery.

According to Jane's, even the Israeli Defence Forces had complained about the TAR-21s 'unsatisfactory' performance, with the delivery of the first batch of 15,000 rifles deferred in 2003 till the requisite changes were executed.

Meanwhile, IMI-IWI has also entered into partnership with India's state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to locally build under licence the TAR-21s 9mm version - called ZTAR - for use by India's Special Forces and parachute regiments. The OFB-produced ZTAR is now undergoing user trials.

IMI had also supplied around 130 Galil 7.62 sniper riles and around 450,000 rounds of ammunition to the SFF and the army for $1.4 million in 2005.

India currently has seven Special Forces battalions, which according to the army's newly released doctrine, will be employed for specialised tasks behind enemy lines, to fight insurgencies in Jammu and Kashmir and the northeastern states.

Initial Special Forces raisings that, in effect were converted into parachute regiments, were trained by the Israelis in anti-insurgency operations, official sources said. US Special Forces too have been closely involved in exercising with these Indian units, which are also awaiting the arrival of some 20 pieces of specialized American equipment.

In a related development, the army is on the verge of issuing a request for proposal (RFP) to at least five local and overseas companies for some 80,000 5.56mm light machine carbines.

This would be accompanied by the transfer of technology to either the OFB or a private manufacturer to produce over 600,000 pieces under licence to replace the outdated World War II Stenguns still in use with the army, paramilitary units and state police forces.

Interesting to read about RFP for Carbines (atlast ). OFB site talks about MINSAS carbine. Ae the problems with INSAS carbine resolved? or we are going to import the carbines?

[REMOV]

Interesting to read about RFP for Carbines. OFB site talks about MINSAS carbine. Ae the problems with INSAS carbine resolved? or we are going to import the carbines?

In my opinion the Indians will choice the OFB licenced built Zittara (Z-TAR) carbine (take a look at the OFB website), the derivative of the Micro Tavor, with 5,56 mm x 45, 5,56 mm x 30 and 9 mm x 19 conversion kits.

[INSASMAN]

How does OFB get away with everything. I would really be interested in knowing what they did to get this contraption passed thru trials and technical evaluation.

[omon]

AR-10, best of both worlds power, accuracy, and reliability.
Seriously now, why do people insist on AKs being better? They are rattle traps. Maybe some of the better made imports by Arsenal or the close toleranced PSLs are good guns but you won't be getting your hands on them too easily (more so with the Arsenal). Every M16 from the A1-A4 has a dust cover. When you are out in the field how damned hard is it to close this to keep sand, muck, gunk and crud out? It opens automatically as soon as the bolt is cycled, and you can close it when you are done with the firefight. The other weapons listed here do not compare. The new HK416 gas piston operated rifle has greatly improved reliability in preliminary testing at Yuma proving grounds. Sand is a ***** for every gun, AK included; you drag the AK through the sand you are guaranteed to be kick-starting the action open. Maintenance between firefights and teaching recruits to use gun oil sparingly in sandy environments is the only way to ensure the gun stays reliable.

you obviously never used ak.;)

[mandeep_619]

With grenade lancher

[mandeep_619]

[AndreiDimitri]

I'm not sure that the ak is that bad...what about the Valmet?And what about original AK-47's over copies?

[NishanbazKhan]

AR-10, best of both worlds power, accuracy, and reliability.
Seriously now, why do people insist on AKs being better? They are rattle traps. Maybe some of the better made imports by Arsenal or the close toleranced PSLs are good guns but you won't be getting your hands on them too easily (more so with the Arsenal). Every M16 from the A1-A4 has a dust cover. When you are out in the field how damned hard is it to close this to keep sand, muck, gunk and crud out? It opens automatically as soon as the bolt is cycled, and you can close it when you are done with the firefight. The other weapons listed here do not compare. The new HK416 gas piston operated rifle has greatly improved reliability in preliminary testing at Yuma proving grounds. Sand is a ***** for every gun, AK included; you drag the AK through the sand you are guaranteed to be kick-starting the action open. Maintenance between firefights and teaching recruits to use gun oil sparingly in sandy environments is the only way to ensure the gun stays reliable.

hate to break it to you buddy but you can bury an AK in sand and fill it's barrel with mud and it will clear itself with the first round. plenty of testimony of AK users goes against your theories.

[usgn]

Guess OFB current focus is pushing for the carbine program since last heard the weapons submitted to MHA failed miserably....

[Ray]

I wonder if anyone here has used all the three weapons in combat to give a realistic comparison.

Technical specifications from glossies are hardly worthy of comparison as a weapon.

I have used the INSAS and AK 47 in combat. Both are good, but personally I would think a AK is more reliable in low maintenance scenarios.

[GraniteForge]

... Many caught under the Clinton AWB, but HK never bothered to try again when it sunsetted, and you can't blame them ...

I'd like to hear what you think HK should have done to "try again."

The "assault weapons" ban expired, the semi-auto import ban did not.

[Shiny Capstar]

I wonder if anyone here has used all the three weapons in combat to give a realistic comparison.

Technical specifications from glossies are hardly worthy of comparison as a weapon.

I have used the INSAS and AK 47 in combat. Both are good, but personally I would think a AK is more reliable in low maintenance scenarios.

What is the INSAS like to use? I have used the AK 47, (Type 56 Chinese AK), but not in combat.

I do however think that the best weapon you can have is the one in your hands at the time, I mean I hear a lot of things about how unreliable the SA80 is. But I've never had an A2 jam in combat or on the range and its bloody accurate, more so than the G36 in my opinion. Yes its heavy and could do with being a bit lighter among other things but in combat it works and it hits what I want to hit, it just has a very bad reputation from the A1.

[GraniteForge]

... I hear a lot of things about how unreliable the SA80 is. But I've never had an A2 jam in combat or on the range ...

With which ammo? Radway Green? or full powered NATO ammo?