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  • Pakistan warns against more NATO raids

    Pakistan warns against more NATO raids
    By KIMBERLY DOZIER and CHRIS BRUMMITT, Associated Press Writers Kimberly Dozier And Chris Brummitt, Associated Press Writers 1 hr 56 mins ago

    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Pakistan has told NATO leaders it will stop protecting U.S. and NATO supply lines to Afghanistan if foreign aircraft stage further cross-border attacks against fleeing militants, security officials said Tuesday.

    If carried out, such a threat would have major consequences on the war in Afghanistan as well as on Pakistan's relationship with the United States, which is vitally important for both nations. Analysts said there was little or no chance of Islamabad carrying though with it, however.

    The threat was therefore seen as mostly aimed at tamping down criticism inside Pakistan, where anti-American sentiment runs high and where conspiracy theories that the U.S. army is poised to invade the nation from bases in Afghanistan are rampant.

    But it was also a clear sign of Pakistani unease at the attacks on Saturday and Monday by NATO aircraft against militants in its northwest tribal areas and a reminder of the leverage the country has in its complicated alliance with Washington.

    While Pakistan has remained largely silent about U.S. drone strikes in the northwest, Pakistani security officials say they are drawing a line at direct interference by U.S. and NATO manned aircraft. They rejected NATO statements that NATO air defense teams were acting to protect an Afghan border post against militants who had attacked it, then fled to Pakistan.

    The Pakistani officers said Pakistan's foreign ministry had conveyed the threat to stop protecting NATO convoys to NATO headquarters in Brussels. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to give their names to the media.

    If there are any more attacks by U.S. or NATO choppers "we will not be able to ensure the safety of their convoys," one of the officials told an Associated Press reporter at a private briefing.

    On Monday, the foreign ministry strongly criticized the attacks and warned of "response options" if they happened again.

    Some 80 percent of non-lethal supplies for foreign forces fighting in landlocked Afghanistan cross over Pakistani soil after being unloaded at docks in Karachi, a port city in the south.

    Pakistani security forces provide security for the convoys, which are often attacked by militants as they travel north.

    While NATO and the United States have alternative supply routes, the Pakistani ones are the cheapest and most convenient.

    In Washington, Defense Department spokesman Col. Dave Lapan said he was unaware of any threats by Islamabad to stop providing convoy security. But "just on the face of it, if they were to stop providing security to our convoys that would be problematic. We would work with the Pakistanis to make sure that wouldn't happen."

    The border incidents are alleged to have happened after insurgents attacked NATO forces in Afghanistan then retreated back across the unmarked border.

    Vice Admiral Michael LeFever, the senior U.S. military representative in Pakistan, said the helicopters had not crossed into Pakistani territory, but had fired into it. He said such cross-border incidents were quite common and were usually coordinated with Pakistani military officers at the border.

    LeFever suggested that foreign forces in the first incident had coordinated with their Pakistani counterparts but that senior Pakistani military officials got wind of them via media reports before their own officers were able to report them.

    He dismissed suggestions of a serious rift in Pakistan's alliance with the United States as a result of the incidents.

    "The relationship has ebbed and flowed," LeFever told the AP.

    Talat Masood, a security analyst and former Pakistani army general, said even though Pakistan has reduced its criticism of the missile strikes, it had to draw the line somewhere or it risked being seen as more interested in doing America's bidding than protecting the country's sovereignty.

    While Pakistan may be unlikely to pull security from the NATO convoys, the threat is more credible than others it could make and does remind the U.S. of the leverage the country has in the relationship.

    "What other means of countering these helicopter attacks does Pakistan have?" said Masood. "They cannot attack the helicopters or the troops because that would really break up the relationship."

    He said one possible explanation for Pakistan's reaction was its ever-present obsession with India, its historical and much larger enemy. He said the army was sending a signal that it would not accept Indian forces one day using the same justification to launch cross-border attacks on militants sheltering on its eastern flank.

    The anger over the incursions contrasts with Pakistan's relative silence over American drone strikes against al-Qaida and Taliban targets in the northwest. There have been more attacks this month than in any other since they began in earnest in 2007.

    ____

    Associated Press reporters Ann Flaherty in Washington, Ishtiaq Mahshud in Dera Ismail Khan and Sebastian Abbot in Islamabad contributed to this report.
    Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  • #2
    My thoughts,

    1. the militants were a group with ISI links seeking to push back ANA forces away from the border.

    and/or

    2. If NATO gets away with it, India may try it.

    Time to look and see who is barking, and who told them to bark.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by zraver View Post

      2. If NATO gets away with it, India may try it.
      Saw a couple of articles today suggesting that this is causing concern in Pakistan.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HKDan View Post
        Saw a couple of articles today suggesting that this is causing concern in Pakistan.
        Its a genuine concern, Pakistan can paper over US strikes, but not Indian. It would collapse the government and put the army back in power and possibly lead to war.

        Granted if pakistan sealed its borders this would not be an issue, but thats part of the internal power struggle in Pakistan. 26/11 proved Zadari and Gilani are not powerful enough yet to bring certain elements of the ISI and miltiary under control.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by zraver View Post
          Its a genuine concern...
          Contrast Osirak and Kahuta.

          Comment


          • #6
            Pakistan Halts NATO Supplies to Afghanistan After Attack

            PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Pakistan closed the most important border crossing for trucks supplying NATO-led coalition troops in Afghanistan on Thursday in apparent retaliation for an attack by coalition helicopters on a Pakistani security post hours earlier.

            Trucks and oil tankers were stopped at the border post of Torkham just north of Peshawar and it was unclear when the post, one of two land crossings, would reopen, a Pakistani security official said.

            A closure of the crossing through which NATO and American troops receive most of their non-lethal equipment is rare, and signaled a worsening in the military relationship between Pakistan and the United States just three months before the Obama administration takes stock of progress in Afghanistan.

            The Pakistani interior minister, Rehman Malik indicated that NATO strikes in Pakistan were being taken extremely seriously. “We will have to see whether we are allies or enemies,” he said Thursday.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/wo...r.html?_r=1&hp

            Do we finally get to see how much leverage Pakistan has against the ISAF? I am not holding my breath.

            Comment


            • #7
              These are the useless people we gave flood aid to...

              With friends like these …
              by Shyema on 09 30th, 2010 | Comments (5)
              The Dawn Blog » Blog Archive » With friends like these …
              With friends like these …

              As reports emerged of Nato’s fourth helicopter strike in Pakistan in recent days, news articles began stating that “Pakistan has expressed outrage at the violation of its airspace by Nato helicopters in Afghanistan.” Who exactly expressed this outrage and where? On Wednesday Interior Minister Rehman Malik said that no one is allowed to violate Pakistan’s sovereignty. What sovereignty? The one we sell bit by bit everyday? Mr. Malik is right – no one but Pakistan itself is allowed to infringe upon this country’s sovereignty.

              There was a bit of an uproar when the earlier three strikes took place, but a tiny consolation given was that Nato’s targets were the militants from the Haqqani network – sadly this is not the case in Thursday’s strike. If reports prove true, Nato helicopters crossed 5km inside Pakistan’s territory and struck a border post in the Kurram Agency, killing three Pakistani soldiers – that’s security forces, not militants.

              What does Pakistan do in return? Well we start with blocking Nato supply trucks to Afghanistan for starters and then we decide to take up this issue in the National Assembly and then I’m not so sure. Mr. Malik also just stated that “we will have to see whether we are allies or enemies.” On one hand we are receiving so much funding and aid and on the other hand, our sovereignty is being ridiculed by daily drone strikes and now the chopper violations. Mr. Malik, with friends like these, who…., well you know how the saying goes.

              We highlight the active and brave role our security forces are playing in this war on terror – yet obviously it isn’t enough since we are allowing our ‘friends’ to come and constantly gate crash our mission. Or wait, this isn’t just Pakistan’s war they say – if not, why pretend to have an issue with the drone strikes? There may not be a black and white solution to the militancy but the establishment does need to decide, is it happy with the assistance (read: violation of sovereignty) or not? Once that is decided, it can take a firm stance on what is happening today. But can it? How can one forget all the billions of dollars this friendship has given us – the billions of dollars which have ended up making this friendship a very taxing one.

              Our masses may be uneducated but this is not a country full of fools. Whichever socio-economic group you decide to look at – they all stopped believing in public statements and government promises a long time ago. Half the time our leaders are busy defending various corruption cases against themselves – the only time they are upholding this country’s sovereignty is in their well-rehearsed statements made to the media.

              The poverty stricken group knows it is not going to get its’ promised ‘roti, kapra and makaan’ and the middle-class masses know that they are far from the democratic nation they are made to believe they are – and personally allowing this government to complete its five-year term in its current state isn’t going to bring about any magic either. Still, we hope… and we hope.

              The government may publicly condemn the drone strikes to pacify the masses, but it does not realise that this is not an oblivious nation. If drone strikes are to continue in Pakistan, then instead of further discrediting itself and mocking the intelligence of the nation, the government should boldly say so. However, if the establishment actually believes that Pakistani security forces can handle the military operations inside the country then Pakistan needs to gain some healthy distance from its ‘friend’ – and resist all the crispy dollars come with the friendship. You cannot condemn something yet condone it at the same time. And that is exactly what is happening right now. Militants may not recognise borders but security forces should.

              Shyema Sajjad is the Deputy Editor at Dawn.com
              Last edited by troung; 30 Sep 10,, 13:23.
              To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

              Comment


              • #8
                Shooting the int he direction of NATO helicopters - Darwin strikes.

                Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistan has banned NATO supply convoys from entering Afghanistan after fighting between NATO troops and militants led to the killing of three Pakistani soldiers, according to a military official from the NATO-led command in Afghanistan.

                The troops were killed when three NATO helicopters crossed from Afghanistan into Pakistani airspace early Thursday and attacked a military outpost, the government said. Three troops were wounded as well.

                Supply convoys are all-important for the Afghan war effort, and officials from NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) were trying to persuade Pakistan to lift the ban. Coalition forces rely heavily on convoys from Pakistan to bring in supplies and gear.

                ISAF said in a statement Thursday that its forces saw what they thought were insurgents trying to fire mortars at a coalition base in the Dand Patan District of Afghanistan's Paktiya province, near the Pakistani border.
                An air weapons team targeted the suspected insurgents' firing position, located inside Afghanistan along the border area, and the aircraft entered Pakistani airspace briefly "as they engaged this initial target," the ISAF statement said.
                After this strike, the "aircraft received what the crews assessed as effective small arms fire from individuals just across the border in Pakistan" and the ISAF aircraft, operating in self-defense, entered into Pakistani airspace and killed "several armed individuals."
                Later, Pakistani military officials told ISAF that coalition aircraft struck its border forces.
                "ISAF and Pakistani forces are reviewing the operational reporting to verify the exact location of the two engagements and the facts in this case, and we will work together to fully investigate this incident.
                "Both sides have in mind that it is the insurgents, operating on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan and violating the territorial sovereignty of both countries, that we are focused on fighting," the ISAF statement said.

                ISAF issued "sincere condolences to the Pakistani military and the families of those who were killed or injured."

                The Pakistani government said two helicopters from Afghanistan appeared to have crossed the border into Pakistan in the Mandata Kandaho, Ali Mangola area of the upper Kurram Agency and engaged an outpost of Frontier Corps through cannon fire.
                The post, manned by six soldiers, is located 200 meters inside Pakistan, and troops fired their rifles to indicate that the helicopters were crossing into Pakistani territory.
                Instead of heeding the warning, the choppers fired two missiles and destroyed the post, killing the three soldiers and injuring three others.
                "This is the third incident of its kind during past one week. In the wake of the last incident on 27 September, contact was made at the highest military level and the incident was regretted by the USA," the government said.

                NATO helicopters crossed into Pakistani airspace from Afghanistan in pursuit of insurgents over the weekend, killing 49 people, a spokesman told CNN Monday.
                Crossing the border did not violate the International Security Assistance Force rules of engagement, Maj. Michael Johnson said.
                Pakistan is very sensitive about U.S.-led military operations on its territory and issued a strong protest Monday.
                Pakistan called the incursions "a clear violation and breach" of U.N. rules for foreign forces in Afghanistan.

                The United Nations "mandate terminates/finishes at the Afghanistan border. There are no agreed hot pursuit rules," Pakistan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
                A senior administration official in the tribal region's Khyber Agency told CNN Thursday that Pakistan had temporarily stopped NATO supplies from entering Afghanistan in the area of Takhta Baig, which is located about 45 km (28 miles) from the border with Afghanistan.
                The official asked to not be named because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

                ================
                U.S.: Only one supply route shut down by Pakistan
                From Frederik Pleitgen, Larry Shaughnessy, and Barbara Starr, CNN
                September 30, 2010 -- Updated 1653 GMT (0053 HKT)
                Three soldiers were killed when NATO helicopters crossed the Afghanistan Pakistan border, Pakistani security officials said.
                Three soldiers were killed when NATO helicopters crossed the Afghanistan Pakistan border, Pakistani security officials said.
                STORY HIGHLIGHTS

                * NEW: U.S. says only one supply route is closed
                * Pakistan says its troops fired warning shots
                * NATO aircraft entered Pakistani airspace, ISAF said

                U.S.: Only one supply route shut down by Pakistan - CNN.com

                Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- The U.S. military says only one supply route to Afghanistan has been closed by the Pakistani government after fighting that led to the deaths of three Pakistani soldiers, and a military spokesman said Thursday that United States is hopeful the situation is only temporary.

                Pakistan banned NATO supply convoys from entering Afghanistan after the deaths of the three soldiers, whom the government says were killed in Pakistani territory during fighting between NATO troops and militants, according to a military official from the NATO-led command in Afghanistan.

                Other routes from Pakistan to the war zone remain open, Pentagon spokesman Col. Dave Lapan said Thursday. Lapan said it was too soon to assess the impact of closing this crucial route.

                The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad is talking with Pakistan to resolve the situation.

                Supply convoys are all-important for the Afghan war effort, and officials from NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) were trying to persuade Pakistan to lift the ban. Coalition forces rely heavily on convoys from Pakistan to bring in supplies and gear.

                ISAF said in a statement Thursday that its forces saw what they thought were insurgents trying to fire mortars at a coalition base in the Dand Patan District of Afghanistan's Paktiya province, near the Pakistani border.

                An air weapons team targeted the suspected insurgents' firing position, located inside Afghanistan along the border area, and the aircraft entered Pakistani airspace briefly "as they engaged this initial target," the ISAF statement said.

                After this strike, the "aircraft received what the crews assessed as effective small arms fire from individuals just across the border in Pakistan" and the ISAF aircraft, operating in self-defense, entered into Pakistani airspace and killed "several armed individuals."

                Later, Pakistani military officials told ISAF that coalition aircraft struck its border forces.

                "ISAF and Pakistani forces are reviewing the operational reporting to verify the exact location of the two engagements and the facts in this case, and we will work together to fully investigate this incident.

                "Both sides have in mind that it is the insurgents, operating on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan and violating the territorial sovereignty of both countries, that we are focused on fighting," the ISAF statement said.

                ISAF issued "sincere condolences to the Pakistani military and the families of those who were killed or injured."

                The Pakistani government said two helicopters from Afghanistan appeared to have crossed the border into Pakistan in the Mandata Kandaho, Ali Mangola area of the upper Kurram Agency and engaged an outpost of Frontier Corps through cannon fire.

                The post, manned by six soldiers, is located 200 meters inside Pakistan, and troops fired their rifles to indicate that the helicopters were crossing into Pakistani territory.

                Instead of heeding the warning, the choppers fired two missiles and destroyed the post, killing the three soldiers and injuring three others.

                "This is the third incident of its kind during past one week. In the wake of the last incident on 27 September, contact was made at the highest military level and the incident was regretted by the USA," the government said.

                NATO helicopters crossed into Pakistani airspace from Afghanistan in pursuit of insurgents over the weekend, killing 49 people, a spokesman told CNN Monday.

                Crossing the border did not violate the International Security Assistance Force rules of engagement, Maj. Michael Johnson said.

                Pakistan is very sensitive about U.S.-led military operations on its territory and issued a strong protest Monday.

                Pakistan called the incursions "a clear violation and breach" of U.N. rules for foreign forces in Afghanistan.

                The United Nations "mandate terminates/finishes at the Afghanistan border. There are no agreed hot pursuit rules," Pakistan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

                A senior administration official in the tribal region's Khyber Agency told CNN Thursday that Pakistan had temporarily stopped NATO supplies from entering Afghanistan in the area of Takhta Baig, which is located about 45 km (28 miles) from the border with Afghanistan.

                The official asked to not be named because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

                A commander of international forces in the western part of Afghanistan said Thursday that Pakistan's recent ban on use of supply routes is "not a problem" for troops in his area of the country.

                Italian Gen. Claudio Berto, talking to reporters in the Pentagon via satellite from Afghanistan, said, "In my point of view, it's not a problem, we are really far away from Pakistan, and if you mean the goods for the soldier, they're coming through other borders, for example Turkmenistan. And we have no problem with this issue."
                Last edited by troung; 30 Sep 10,, 18:07.
                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                Comment


                • #9
                  Somethings Pakistan needs to learn

                  1. If Pakistan would seal the border and not let attacks be launched from its territory, they obviously had troops in the area.

                  2. Don't fire on ISAF helicopters to cover retreating insurgents.

                  3. make NATO soldiers hungry and see how long that massive armada in the Gulf of Aden takes to make Pakistan hungry.

                  4. Piss off the US, and watch the US umbrella protecting Pakistan from India goes away.

                  5. Pakistan's nukes are worthless, they can't reach the US and are vulnerable to a NATO/US op to turn Pakistan into a formerly NWS with no leverage at all over India.

                  6. Remember who controls the IMF and World Bank.

                  7. China won't save her, a US-Pakistan split is good for China by focusing American attention away from China and the South China Sea.

                  8. Inside America, Democrats need an October surprise, they will go hard line and leave Pakistan crippled if it keeps them in office.

                  9. The Arabs won't do anything, they need America more than they need Pakistan.

                  10. Pakistan is a vassal state, nothing more, it does not dictate policy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    10. Pakistan is a vassal state, nothing more, it does not dictate policy.
                    Have you read Bob Woodward's book, "Obama's Wars?" A very interesting insight into how Obama thinks. Apparently, Obama is letting Pakistan dictating to some extent his policy on Afghanistan operations.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      5. Pakistan's nukes are worthless, they can't reach the US and are vulnerable to a NATO/US op to turn Pakistan into a formerly NWS with no leverage at all over India.
                      Z,

                      Most of their nukes are spread thickly in their best controlled/governed territory, i.e. Punjab and Sindh.
                      Trying to take them out with nukes will have huge fallouts in India's western territories as well, some of which are densely populated. Are you sure US/NATO might take that rout (not meaning they can not)?
                      sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Were the recent news reports of attack on NATO convoy a part of this story or is that a regular thing?

                        Dozens of NATO oil tankers attacked in Pakistan
                        By AARON FAVILA , 10.01.10, 06:36 AM EDT
                        Suspected militants in southern Pakistan set ablaze more than two dozen tankers carrying fuel for foreign troops in Afghanistan on Friday, highlighting the vulnerability of the U.S.-led mission a day after Pakistan closed a major border crossing.

                        The convoy of tankers attacked Friday was likely headed to a second crossing in southwest Pakistan that was not closed. It was not clear if the vehicles had been rerouted because of the closure at Torkham.

                        Islamist militants occasionally attack NATO supply tankers in Pakistan, mostly in the northwest where their influence is stronger. Thursday's strike was in Sindh province, far from the border, and might be taken as a sign that the insurgents are expanding their reach.

                        Attacks on NATO and U.S. supply convoys in Pakistan give militants a propaganda victory, but coalition officials say they do not result in shortages in Afghanistan. Some of the attacks are believed to be the work of criminals. Some officials allege truck owners may be behind some of them, perhaps to fraudulently claim insurance.

                        Pakistani security officials had warned after two alleged NATO helicopter incursions last weekend that they would stop providing protection to NATO convoys if it happened again.

                        Defense Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar said Friday that Pakistan had to take a stand.

                        "If the NATO forces keep on entering into Pakistan and carrying out attacks, then (the) only option we have - we should stop the movement of the containers," he said.

                        At Torkham, some 150 containers were waiting Friday for the border to reopen. The truck drivers were getting impatient and worried about the prospect of militant attacks.

                        "I might have not come here with NATO material if I knew that I will have to face this problem," said Shalif Khan. "We are forced to spend the day and the night in the open. We do not have any security here."
                        Dozens of NATO oil tankers attacked in Pakistan - Forbes.com

                        How about the other routes the places Soviets got their supplies from. (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan)?

                        That area will have very low chances of attacks on Convoy, and in case they have to bail out will create a sustainable route for the Afghan Government to maintain (for getting supplies) as opposed to the current route which comes from the area that seems to be the hub of Taliban.
                        Last edited by kuku; 01 Oct 10,, 12:05.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kuku View Post
                          Were the recent news reports of attack on NATO convoy a part of this story or is that a regular thing?
                          I've read about these attacks happening before so its certainly not a new thing, as for how common it is I don't know.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When PA recently launched combat ops against insurgents, I thought these irritations at supply routes would be a thing of past.
                            After fighting for weeks, can't the PA even take all the routes out of terrorists reach?
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            2. Don't fire on ISAF helicopters to cover retreating insurgents.
                            That is very right, but sadly real time field situations aren't so discrete and probably the half trained reflxes of PA soldiers did them in.
                            What I'm wondering is:
                            a) Was the chopper going to attack the post anyways even if they hadn't fired, meaning were they unaware that it was PA?
                            b) At the time of retaliating when being fired at, could the chopper have known then that it was PA and yet fired back because they got fired at first?
                            Sorry if I sound naive, actually I am amidst this bunch at WAB.
                            sigpic Only the brave shall inherit the Earth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                              Z,

                              Most of their nukes are spread thickly in their best controlled/governed territory, i.e. Punjab and Sindh. Trying to take them out with nukes will have huge fallouts in India's western territories as well, some of which are densely populated. Are you sure US/NATO might take that rout (not meaning they can not)?
                              Maj DCL, Why would nuclear weapons be needed to take out the Pakistani weapons? It is a can of worms the US is not ready to open for a two-bit case like Pakistan. Methinks other assets suffice. Or are you worried about the radioactive fallout of hitting the Pakistani reactors? It is a legitimate concern, especially depending on the time of the year. But as the saying goes, you cannot choose your neighbors; you can only think about how to mitigate its effects on yourself.

                              Comment

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